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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old November 8 2012, 04:30 PM   #16
Timo
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Re: Ensigns of Command question..

But if everyone you are setting the example for is about to die as well, what's the point?
I trust Gosheven could think beyond the confines of his little planet. Colonization is a widespread phenomenon, and the Sheliak seem to be a widespread threat, too; plenty of example to set there.

In the first instance, you are implaying that any Humans are automatically Federation citizens, and then in the next you are suggesting that they aren't.
Which is my way of saying that it's impossible to tell. We have been canonically surprised both ways already...

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Old November 9 2012, 01:26 AM   #17
Tiberius
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Re: Ensigns of Command question..

Timo wrote: View Post
But if everyone you are setting the example for is about to die as well, what's the point?
I trust Gosheven could think beyond the confines of his little planet. Colonization is a widespread phenomenon, and the Sheliak seem to be a widespread threat, too; plenty of example to set there.
Sorry, but that makes no sense to me.

He'd be willing to let everything his colony had established be destroyed along with all its people to encourage some other colonists he knew nothing about?
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Old November 9 2012, 10:05 AM   #18
T'Girl
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Re: Ensigns of Command question..

Mojochi wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
... what allowed the Federation not to remove the colonists in Journey's End wasn't their renouncing their citizenship, it was the Cardassians permitting them to stay ...
By choosing to renounce their citizenship, they are no longer Starfleet's responsibility, & therefore they would not be able to remove them forcibly.
As I recall, Picard was ordered to remove the colonists, not to remove "Federation citizens." Regardless of their citizenship status, if the Cardassian hadn't agreed to allow them to stay, Picard ultimately would have removed them. This was a condition to the new treaty. Whether they were leaving (or not) wasn't really up to the colonists.

Starfleet was evacuating non-Cardassians from a Cardassian planet.


Last edited by T'Girl; November 9 2012 at 10:17 AM.
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Old November 9 2012, 10:30 AM   #19
Timo
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Re: Ensigns of Command question..

He'd be willing to let everything his colony had established be destroyed along with all its people to encourage some other colonists he knew nothing about?
What was the point of getting killed at the Alamo? Nobody survived, but the senseless defense sent a message.

That's among the most common reasons to put up a defensive fight: to be remembered. Generally, you don't get attacked unless the attacker is certain of his victory, after all, so the defense achieves nothing in pure tactical terms.

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Old November 9 2012, 10:38 AM   #20
Tiberius
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Re: Ensigns of Command question..

Timo wrote: View Post
He'd be willing to let everything his colony had established be destroyed along with all its people to encourage some other colonists he knew nothing about?
What was the point of getting killed at the Alamo? Nobody survived, but the senseless defense sent a message.
Dunno, never learned about it.

But I'd assume that if they had no way out, then they'd have to try, no matter what.

That's among the most common reasons to put up a defensive fight: to be remembered.
And who was going to remember the colonists, considering that a week before, know one in the galaxy knew about them?

Generally, you don't get attacked unless the attacker is certain of his victory, after all, so the defense achieves nothing in pure tactical terms.
Huh? Sounds like you;re saying that if you are attacked in war, the best choice is to surrender, because the attackers are probably going to win!
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Old November 9 2012, 02:24 PM   #21
Timo
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Re: Ensigns of Command question..

And who was going to remember the colonists, considering that a week before, know one in the galaxy knew about them?
Well, the whole galaxy, supposedly. Why would Picard keep it a secret? Out of spite?

Huh? Sounds like you;re saying that if you are attacked in war, the best choice is to surrender, because the attackers are probably going to win!
Well, generally this is true for modern wars of conquest (which aren't all that common, but certain periods of history have lots of those as opposed to the other sorts of war). If the attacker didn't have both the means and the will to crush you, he wouldn't have started the war. You're most probably much better off if you do not try to defend yourself, or at least give up after going through some motions.

However, wars rarely exist in isolation. Even if defense of Poland against Germany is hopeless from the viewpoint of Poland itself, it poses advantages for the other enemies of Germany, and therefore for Poland, too...

But if a nation today feels strong enough to take on another nation, we're generally talking about entities of such magnitude that all but the most powerful alliances will hesitate to step in. History appears to fluctuate in this sense: there are periods where the balance of power is such that any defense is symbolic only and will not directly benefit the defenders, and periods where the sovereignty of a nation will be protected by interested outside parties for reasons that might also be considered symbolic.

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Old November 9 2012, 07:42 PM   #22
CoveTom
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Re: Ensigns of Command question..

With regards to the OP's question, let's remember that I don't believe it was ever stated that Picard was going to force the colonists to leave. Right up until the end when he destroyed the aquaduct, Data was trying methods of persuasion. There's no indication that he would have forcibly removed them in the end, had they failed to agree.
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Old November 9 2012, 08:01 PM   #23
Christopher
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Re: Ensigns of Command question..

CoveZombie wrote: View Post
With regards to the OP's question, let's remember that I don't believe it was ever stated that Picard was going to force the colonists to leave. Right up until the end when he destroyed the aquaduct, Data was trying methods of persuasion. There's no indication that he would have forcibly removed them in the end, had they failed to agree.
Right. The whole dilemma driving the story was that if Data was unable to persuade the colonists to leave, they would die. Dramatically, the point of the story was to test Data in a leadership situation, a crisis where he had to persuade humans to trust and follow him -- kinda like "The Galileo Seven" was for Spock. That doesn't work unless the colonists' survival depends entirely on his own ability to convince them to cooperate.

Let's remember, after all, that the reason Data was alone down there is that he was the only person other than the colonists who could survive the hyperonic radiation on the planet. So nobody else could have come down to forcibly evacuate the colonists. Either they did it themselves or nobody did.
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Old November 9 2012, 10:35 PM   #24
Mojochi
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Re: Ensigns of Command question..

Timo wrote: View Post
We never learned of a mechanism by which a bunch of colonists from Earth would not be Federation citizens - even if said bunch left for their destination before the UFP was even founded.
The Humans of Moab IV (Masterpiece Society) are not Federation citizens. So, it does seem evident that not all Human colonies are federation ones.
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Old November 9 2012, 10:52 PM   #25
Pavonis
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Re: Ensigns of Command question..

It makes no sense to call a colony of Humans, or Vulcans, or Betazoids a Federation colony if they aren't aware of the Federation's existence, let alone participating in the Federation's government.
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Old November 9 2012, 11:19 PM   #26
CoveTom
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Re: Ensigns of Command question..

^ Unless the Federation considers all colonies within its borders to be "Federation colonies."
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Old November 10 2012, 12:30 AM   #27
Tiberius
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Re: Ensigns of Command question..

Timo wrote: View Post
And who was going to remember the colonists, considering that a week before, know one in the galaxy knew about them?
Well, the whole galaxy, supposedly. Why would Picard keep it a secret? Out of spite?
The whole galaxy knew? How? The sheliak had only just told anyone about it, otherwise the Enterprise would have been there much sooner!

Huh? Sounds like you;re saying that if you are attacked in war, the best choice is to surrender, because the attackers are probably going to win!
Well, generally this is true for modern wars of conquest (which aren't all that common, but certain periods of history have lots of those as opposed to the other sorts of war). If the attacker didn't have both the means and the will to crush you, he wouldn't have started the war. You're most probably much better off if you do not try to defend yourself, or at least give up after going through some motions.
Is that why England surrendered as soon as Germany started firing those missiles at them in WW2?

But if a nation today feels strong enough to take on another nation, we're generally talking about entities of such magnitude that all but the most powerful alliances will hesitate to step in.
I don't know about that. Australia has sent troops to the middle east, and we're not the most powerful nation in the world.
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Old November 10 2012, 12:31 AM   #28
Christopher
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Re: Ensigns of Command question..

CoveZombie wrote: View Post
^ Unless the Federation considers all colonies within its borders to be "Federation colonies."
Why would they? That would be the mentality of some ruthless conquering power that believed it ruled over all others by default, but that's not the way the Federation thinks.

I think we should clarify the terms here before proceeding. A colony, formally, is a physically separate territory or settlement that remains politically subject to or connected with its parent state. That means a colony founded by United Earth before the Federation was founded would be a United Earth colony. However, since that colony would be a political extension of UE, it would thus presumably have become a Federation colony when UE became a Federation member.

However -- the key that makes something a colony is that it remains politically linked to and governed by the state.
The folks in "The Masterpiece Society" called their settlement the Genome colony, but they must have been using a more informal definition of the word, like the way it's used when talking about an artists' colony -- an enclave or community of people with shared interests, origins, or occupations. Politically speaking, Moab IV/Genome was not a colony at all, but an independent nation. It wasn't governed by Earth or the Federation; nobody even knew it was there. The Federation would've had no more right to lay claim to it, or any other politically independent human population, than they would've had to annex Bajor or Ferenginar.
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Old November 10 2012, 12:33 AM   #29
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Ensigns of Command question..

Timo wrote: View Post
He'd be willing to let everything his colony had established be destroyed along with all its people to encourage some other colonists he knew nothing about?
What was the point of getting killed at the Alamo? Nobody survived, but the senseless defense sent a message.

That's among the most common reasons to put up a defensive fight: to be remembered. Generally, you don't get attacked unless the attacker is certain of his victory, after all, so the defense achieves nothing in pure tactical terms.

Timo Saloniemi
The difference there is, the Alamo was a battle between opposing human forces. Sure, it may not have been exactly even, manpower-wise, but still a mere matter of one group of humans against another.

In this episode, however? It would not have been a battle, but rather a slaughter. It would have been literally impossible for the colonists to beat the Sheliak, because as Data pointed out, the Sheliak could have simply obliterated the colony from orbit. A slaughter like that would be completely pointless when it's so easily avoidable. The human colonists would not be "standing up" to the Sheliak by fighting them; they'd be mindless sheep agreeing to be wiped out. Who would want to be remembered like that?
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Old November 10 2012, 02:12 AM   #30
Tiberius
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Re: Ensigns of Command question..

I think it's a case of Goshy not wanting to just abandon everything that his colony had worked for. Once it was made clear that they wouldn't be able to do anything, he finally saw sense and realised that their colony was going to be destroyed no matter what, so it made no sense for the people to stay and be destroyed with it.
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