I need to run this by some people...

[Kestra]

Kommander wrote:

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The main reason I've decided to do things this way is because if I think of it as spending time together rather than dating, I'll calm the fuck down and can focus on being charming and humorous rather than being all anxious. I generally don't philosophize like this to girls I'm "spending time" with unless they're interested in such things or I'm drinking. However, I have to do it in general if I want to be good at being Dr. Kommander, Awesome Sex Therapist!!!

That's cool. I know there's a lot of stress and anxiety involved so if it helps you calm down, that works. I'd just personally be confused and want to define things just so I knew we were on the same page. Also I get that you want to be a sex therapist, but maybe separate that from your own personal life a little bit? Apologies if that's out of line!

[teacake]

Oh I'm sure he's heard "those who can't do, teach" rather a lot.

[Kommander]

Kestra wrote:

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That's cool. I know there's a lot of stress and anxiety involved so if it helps you calm down, that works. I'd just personally be confused and want to define things just so I knew we were on the same page. Also I get that you want to be a sex therapist, but maybe separate that from your own personal life a little bit? Apologies if that's out of line!

I'm the same way. I like to have a good idea what the situation is. The problem is, whenever I date someone or enter into a relationship, communication breaks down. Trying to rebuild good communication just pisses her off, because apparently I'm supposed to figure out what she wants on my own without asking. I should probably just stop dating women like that, although I really have no way of knowing until it happens. I can probably deal with it okay.

And yeah, I wish I could stop applying psychology to my personal life. However, my brain does not shut off, ever, and trying not to do it just causes me do it more.

Oh, I thought I should mention. I'm not anxious because I'm afraid she's not interested. Rejection I can handle, and I don't really see a lack of romantic interest as rejection anyway. I'm anxious because I'm afraid that she is interested, and I start recalling how bad my previous relationships were, that I haven't learned anything, and it's going to end up being bad again. If I can manage to experience a decent relationship for once, this will probably stop happening, and that's why I keep trying.

teacock wrote:

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Oh I'm sure he's heard "those who can't do, teach" rather a lot.

There's a difference between being unable to do something, and being extremely terrible at something. Spend enough time doing something the wrong way, and eventually I'll make all the mistakes and then have no option but to do things the right way. At least, I hope that's how it works.

[teacake]

Kestra wrote:

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I'd just personally be confused and want to define things just so I knew we were on the same page.

Contracts are the answer.

[teacake]

Kommander wrote:

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There's a difference between being unable to do something, and being extremely terrible at something. Spend enough time doing something the wrong way, and eventually I'll make all the mistakes and then have no option but to do things the right way. At least, I hope that's how it works.

Learning disabilities are in all spheres of human interaction.

[rahullak]

sojourner wrote:

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So, it's the semantics that get in your way.

[Gaith]

Kommander wrote:

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I like to have a good idea what the situation is. The problem is [...] apparently I'm supposed to figure out what she wants on my own without asking.

No, you're supposed to pursue what you want in a gentlemanly and respectful (yet fun and easygoing) manner. If she wants the same, you'll be able to tell, and things will progress.

I'm sorry that you've had negative experiences in the past (that anecdote about being summoned to a meeting with counselors is indeed pretty terrifying), but there's no simply substitute for confidence (a subject discussed in the Guide).

[FPAlpha]

Just ask her out for a drink/coffee or if you're feeling bold ask her out for dinner.

Try not to come off as sleazy, be respectful and if she says she'd rather not accept it and remain friends.

It really is that easy and it's even easier because you know each other and you don't have to pick up a total stranger. You be amazed how good it feels when you have jumped over yourself in that regard.. no matter the outcome.

[teacake]

Gaith wrote:

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No, you're supposed to pursue what you want in a gentlemanly and respectful (yet fun and easygoing) manner. If she wants the same, you'll be able to tell, and things will progress.

I also think it's important to have a contingency plan in place so you know what you'll say and how you will act if she clearly rebuffs you. You've already said you're cool about it if she just wants to be friends so really, what do you have to lose?

[Kommander]

Gaith wrote:

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No, you're supposed to pursue what you want in a gentlemanly and respectful (yet fun and easygoing) manner. If she wants the same, you'll be able to tell, and things will progress.

Yeah, something like that. I know that now. However, most of the unsolicited dating advice I received throughout my life consisted of things like "You're lucky you found a woman that's willing to put up with a piece of shit like you, do what you have to to keep her from breaking up with you," and "that's just how women are, learn to accept it." It took me a while to catch on that those people are ass holes and that that's how insane women are, not all women. Things are difficult when I don't have any good role models.

Gaith wrote:

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I'm sorry that you've had negative experiences in the past (that anecdote about being summoned to a meeting with counselors is indeed pretty terrifying), but there's no simply substitute for confidence (a subject discussed in the Guide).

Yes, confidence. Confidence comes from acknowledging that anxiety and self-doubt exist, and working through it. Which is precisely what I'm doing. It kind of sucks when it's happening, but I get through it and then things are awesome. It works much better than pretending my self-doubt isn't there.

The incident in high school, as well as others, while they were terrible at the time, they were experiences that I learned from. Because of them, I'm really good at dealing with bullshit. At this point, there's pretty much nothing someone I'm "dating" can throw at me that I can't handle.

As for the high school girl. A few months later she approached me and explained herself. From her perspective, she thought I was becoming a good friend, but as soon as her boyfriend was out of the way I tried to get into her pants, just like all the other men in her life. She felt betrayed, but later realised that that wasn't what I was doing. It was somewhat understandable, but the damage was done and I couldn't forgive her at the time, although I have since. That was the last time I spoke to her, but at least we parted without completely hating each other.

FPAlpha wrote:

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Just ask her out for a drink/coffee or if you're feeling bold ask her out for dinner.

Try not to come off as sleazy, be respectful and if she says she'd rather not accept it and remain friends.

It really is that easy and it's even easier because you know each other and you don't have to pick up a total stranger. You be amazed how good it feels when you have jumped over yourself in that regard.. no matter the outcome.

Well, yeah, if you want to be all reasonable and level-headed about things.

teacock wrote:

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I also think it's important to have a contingency plan in place so you know what you'll say and how you will act if she clearly rebuffs you. You've already said you're cool about it if she just wants to be friends so really, what do you have to lose?

Not a damn thing, really. Although, I've noticed I seem to be attracted to women who are extremely emotionally unstable. I seem to be moving away from that type, but I've been wrong about that before.

When I ask someone out, what I'm saying is "I like you, and dating seems like a fun idea. What do you think?" but what they seem to hear is "I'm into you, I want you, and I will not give up until I have you." It's kind of understandable, as a lot of men are like that, but it puts a stop to friendship developing. Although, if a woman is determined to make assumptions about me and not listen to anything I have to say that goes against those assumptions, there's really not much I can do.

[teacake]

Kommander wrote:

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Not a damn thing, really. Although, I've noticed I seem to be attracted to women who are extremely emotionally unstable. I seem to be moving away from that type, but I've been wrong about that before.

Not to make you paranoid but speaking from experience you might just be filtering out the overt ones and the subtle ones are still ringing your bells for whatever psychological reasons they do.

When I ask someone out, what I'm saying is "I like you, and dating seems like a fun idea. What do you think?" but what they seem to hear is "I'm into you, I want you, and I will not give up until I have you." It's kind of understandable, as a lot of men are like that, but it puts a stop to friendship developing. Although, if a woman is determined to make assumptions about me and not listen to anything I have to say that goes against those assumptions, there's really not much I can do.

I put that down to age, people become more pragmatic and willing to compartmentalize and negotiate as they get older. But it's true that once you're burned by a "friend" who can't stop pursuing you or making you uncomfortable by trying to change the parameters of the relationship every few months it makes a person very wary. It's easy to assume that it will always go down that way.

[Gaith]

Kommander wrote:

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The incident in high school, as well as others, while they were terrible at the time, they were experiences that I learned from. Because of them, I'm really good at dealing with bullshit. At this point, there's pretty much nothing someone I'm "dating" can throw at me that I can't handle.

You really think you know what's out there... ?

I dig the enthusiasm conveyed in your prose, hombre, but statements like the one above give me pause. The wise man is aware of how little he knows. Women are one of the great mysteries of the universe. Approach with confidence, aye, but hubris, not so much.

[teacake]

Gaith wrote:

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Women are one of the great mysteries of the universe.

To you?

[Gaith]

teacock wrote:

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To you?

(Doc Brown felt the same way)

[Kommander]

teacock wrote:

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Not to make you paranoid but speaking from experience you might just be filtering out the overt ones and the subtle ones are still ringing your bells for whatever psychological reasons they do.

This is definitely true. It's why I tend to worry when things are going well. I always wonder if I'm overlooking something.

teacock wrote:

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I put that down to age, people become more pragmatic and willing to compartmentalize and negotiate as they get older. But it's true that once you're burned by a "friend" who can't stop pursuing you or making you uncomfortable by trying to change the parameters of the relationship every few months it makes a person very wary. It's easy to assume that it will always go down that way.

Age is a factor, but not the only one. The last woman that did this was 30 (I'm 28, if that matters.) She was in one of my classes last semester. We started talking a bit, and then I spontaneously remembered that I went to high school with her, and then we started talking a lot. I liked her, she liked me, I wanted to ask her out, but was hesitant because everything I've said in this thread so far. I finally did on the last day of class. She was really happy about it, it was probably the best reaction I've gotten when asking someone out. However, she needed to find a baby sitter, so she asked me to call her the next day to finalize our plans and then, she never returned my calls.

I know what happened. She had recently gotten out of the Navy and was adjusting to civilian life. She had also recently divorced a man she described as "a total douchebag." Because of this, she just didn't want to be dating anyone at that time. It would have been nice had she told me that, but instead she decided to assume that I'm not a reasonable person and that ignoring me was easier.

Gaith wrote:

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I dig the enthusiasm conveyed in your prose, hombre, but statements like the one above give me pause. The wise man is aware of how little he knows. Women are one of the great mysteries of the universe. Approach with confidence, aye, but hubris, not so much.

I probably meant that differently than you interpreted it. I meant it more like if a conflict or problem comes up, there's very little that would make me completely freak out and be unable to act. I didn't mean that I can solve every problem or that everything is easy and effortless. There are also some bad situations I haven't encountered yet. For example, no one I've dated has tried to murder me. If that ever comes up I'd imagine it won't be very fun. However, it would not surprise me.

teacock wrote:

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To you?

The differences between men and women are greatly exaggerated. Other humans are often a great mystery, but very little of it is related to sex or gender.