Federation planets and internal revolution

[The_Baron]

Was there not a plan to have Vulcan secede from the Federation during the Dominion Wars in DS9?

[Timo]

Supposedly, the point is that Starfleet can't interfere. Which is rather sensible: soldiers should not be given the right to make policy decisions! But politicians probably can interfere at every level, including deciding that a certain primitive world is to be contacted. It's just that no Starfleet officer can make such decisions on his or her own.

A ban on Starfleet interfering with Federation member world affairs was established in TOS already, in "Cloud Minders" where leader Plasus of the member world Ardana threatens to report Kirk's attempts at interference to Kirk's Starfleet superiors.

Now, Starfleet also appears to serve as the sole police force of the Federation, making it a bit inconvenient that they can't "interfere"...!

Timo Saloniemi

[Pavonis]

If the Federation doesn't want their Starfleet officers to set policy, they shouldn't let starship captains act as diplomats-at-large and wandering goodwill ambassadors.

In the case of Bajor, if Sisko wasn't supposed to be in charge of organizing the effort to bring Bajor into the UFP, then there should've been a civilian official or officials from the government to take care of the details. But even at the signing ceremony for Bajor's entrance to the Federation ("Rapture"), we saw more Starfleet brass than civilian officials.

Seems like the UFP is a Starfleet dictatorship, don't it?

[T'Girl]

Pavonis wrote:

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Where'd you get that idea?

Cloud Minders.

Why does the Federation exist? What use is it if it can't do anything?

If a member asks for help, then as a member they would likely receive it. Or if they are invaded or something along those lines. But if a member wishes to treat a problem as a internal matter, then the Federation should remain at a distance.

Timo wrote:

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A ban on Starfleet interfering with Federation member world affairs was established in TOS already, in "Cloud Minders" where leader Plasus of the member world Ardana threatens to report Kirk's attempts at interference to Kirk's Starfleet superiors.

High Councilor Plasus also said something like; "Federation council orders can not supersede a local government." Not a exact quote.

Pavonis wrote:

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Seems like the UFP is a Starfleet dictatorship, don't it?

Seem to me that Starfleet are the general errand boys, not just military operations and exploration, they basically do (almost) everything that need to be done.

In Amok Time, Starfleet sent three (or was it four) Starship crews to a corination/swearing in ceremony on some planet.

A little showing of the flag.

[Pavonis]

I dunno. If the trend of increasing the scope of the Prime Directive continues in-universe, as it seems to be doing out-of-universe (what with some fans assuming non-interference is the Federation's sine qua non) the Federation will see itself fall apart due to passiveness.

[T'Girl]

I don't think all "non-interference" is tied directly to the prime directive. Some incidents of non-interference would have to do with dealing with a sovereign power like the Klingons.

The Federation stayed out of the Kingon civil war initially, because they thought it (falsely) to be a purely internal matter, and not because of anything covered by the prime directive.

[The Wormhole]

The_Baron wrote:

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Was there not a plan to have Vulcan secede from the Federation during the Dominion Wars in DS9?

No. What was planned was for Vulcan to be conquered by the Dominion as opposed to Betazed. The writers wanted a planet lost that would resonate with the audience, but Vulcan was rejected since it was felt it was too prominent to simply mention being conquered off screen and never revisit again. Betazed was chosen instead, since would resonate with the fans but was low-key enough to get away with an off-screen dismissal.

[Timo]

On the other hand, Vulcan secession is a common theme in Trek novels. It's hinted at in Strangers From the Sky as being the background of the infamous Vulcanian Expedition; it's the main theme of Spock's World; it's one possible logical outcome in The Final Reflection; and many of the post-ST6:TUC novels dabble on the fact that Vulcan has more in common with Romulus than with the Federation.

if Sisko wasn't supposed to be in charge of organizing the effort to bring Bajor into the UFP

That's an interesting if... That "mission", after all, is what Picard mentions in the passing in a private meeting between the two COs, while also emphasizing that Sisko isn't cleared to violate the PD in the process. The exchange in "Emissary" really sounds like Picard confidentially, almost conspiratorially, divulges the "real" mission to Sisko in stark contrast with his official Starfleet orders, which only involve managing the space station.

Timo Saloniemi

[T'Girl]

The Wormhole wrote:

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The writers wanted a planet lost that would resonate with the audience, but Vulcan was rejected since ...

It was stated in Unification that Vulcan possessed "Vulcan Defense Ships," suggesting they had their own military organization separate from Starfleet. Betazed too had it's own defense forces, but they were described as weak and out dated.

Vulcans and Betazed are very much not the same people.

Add in Spock's statement that : "Vulcan has not been conquered within its collective memory. The memory goes back so far that no Vulcan can conceive of a conqueror."

If faced with the JemHadar, Vulcans might have fought to their own destruction. The Betazed on the other hand could be seen to make the pragmatic decision of surrendering at some point to the Dominion forces.

Timo wrote:

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On the other hand, Vulcan secession is a common theme in Trek novels.

In one of the early novels (or maybe a fan fiction) it said that Cait, Lt. M'Ress's home world, would almost regularly secede from the Federation in protest over council decisions, later they would rejoin again.

while also emphasizing that Sisko isn't cleared to violate the PD in the process

Suggesting that under a different set of circumstance Sisko might have beem allowed to violate the PD, in order to acomplish the "mission."

Picard confidentially, almost conspiratorially, divulges the "real" mission to Sisko

Every time I watch that scene, I get the feeling that Picard is pushing a personal agenda, rather than a Starfleet one, to get Bajor into the Federation. He did seem to have a interest in Bajor and it's fate.

[montag01]

Thanks for quote/reference to Cloud Minders! And for the discussion overall.

[Drago-Kazov]

Timo wrote:

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Famous for its rape gangs? How so? Tasha Yar on one occasion said it had such, but that doesn't yet amount to any sort of "fame".

Also, why would a witness to rape gangs' existence need to be a woman on the run?

Timo Saloniemi

If there would be less woment the more likely there would be rape gangs. Could sombody confirm or deny the fact that Turkana 4 was known for its rape gangs?

[The Wormhole]

As I remember, Tasha Yar only mentioned rape gangs once. Although, in season 4's Legacy Worf told Dr Crusher "you should not accompany us, Doctor. Lt. Yar spoke of rape gangs."

Of course, Worf's implication aside, we should not assume the rape gangs would only target females. They could just as easily target males as well.

[Drago-Kazov]

Maybe their antibaby pills and viagras were tampered with and they have male and female rapa gangs running around all over the place.

[The Wormhole]

Drago-Kazov wrote:

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Maybe their antibaby pills and viagras were tampered with and they have male and female rapa gangs running around all over the place.

Well, I don't see why medication would have to be tampered with. There are plenty of rapists, both male and female in the real world, and medication isn't the cause of the problem.

[Drago-Kazov]

Seriously what percentage of the female population rapes man or other females?