RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,345
Posts: 5,502,379
Members: 25,118
Currently online: 689
Newest member: Ashanti

TrekToday headlines

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13

Sindicate Lager To Debut In The US Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12

Rumor Mill: Saldana Gives Birth
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12

New Line of Anovos Enterprise Uniforms
By: T'Bonz on Dec 11

Frakes: Sign Me Up!
By: T'Bonz on Dec 11


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 13 2012, 06:29 PM   #31
Ian Keldon
Fleet Captain
 
Re: What happens if someone from the past shows up...

trekmom wrote: View Post
What if you can't send them back? Keep in mind that in the "present day" Trek Lit world of approximately 2385ish or so, punishment is on a pretty nice penal colony. Gardens, exercise, fresh air, education and rehabilitation.
Not always. Eddington was basically in an otherwise bare cell on a station somewhere.
Ian Keldon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 13 2012, 07:24 PM   #32
Lonemagpie
Writer
 
Lonemagpie's Avatar
 
Location: Yorkshire
Re: What happens if someone from the past shows up...

Drago-Kazov wrote: View Post
What happens if somebody commits crimes in an alternate reality and there are witnesses and video footage?
It wouldn't be a crime in the native reality - but knowing those poncey Starfleet types, they'd all shun whoever did it.
__________________
"I got two modes with people- Bite, and Avoid"
Reading: ()

Blog- http://lonemagpie.livejournal.com
Lonemagpie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 14 2012, 04:23 PM   #33
E-DUB
Captain
 
Re: What happens if someone from the past shows up...

By way of analogy, there are circumstances under which American citizens can be prosecuted for behavior abroad which is legal in the host country. The Foriegn Corrupt Practices act (business bribery) and sex tourism come to mind.

So it is likely that trhe Feederation could prosecute a citizen for crimes committed outside its territory.
E-DUB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 23 2012, 07:13 AM   #34
RPJOB
Commander
 
RPJOB's Avatar
 
Re: What happens if someone from the past shows up...

There's also the reverse with the Federation refusing to allow one of it's citizens to be prosecuted for a crime committed on a planet that would not be a crime on a Federation world. (Justice - TNG). Wesley Crusher committed the crime and Picard refused to accept it. If you had a captain of a lesser moral code than Picard they could basically let the crew run wild wherever you liked. Rape, murder, theft? Not according to the captain.
__________________
We can admit that we're killers ... but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes! Knowing that we're not going to kill - today! - Kirk - A Taste of Armageddon
RPJOB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 23 2012, 07:33 AM   #35
Timewalker
Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady
 
Timewalker's Avatar
 
Location: In many different universes, simultaneously.
Re: What happens if someone from the past shows up...

Wesley Crusher committed the crime and Picard refused to accept it.
Not quite. Picard refused to accept the sentence. I'm guessing that if the sentence had been for Wesley to spend a day or two doing community service (ie. fixing the flower bed infrastructure, planting flowers, pulling weeds, etc.), that would have been fine.
__________________
"Let's give it to Riker. He'll eat anything!"

For some great Original Series fanfic, check out the Valjiir Continuum!
Timewalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 23 2012, 04:49 PM   #36
RPJOB
Commander
 
RPJOB's Avatar
 
Re: What happens if someone from the past shows up...

But that's not the penalty that the Edo specified for the crime Wesley committed. When Starfleet sets foot on an alien planet they should be under the laws of that planet. It's not like they were even invited. They simply showed up, beamed down and assumed that things worked the same there as they did in the Federation. The Edo are not human, regardless of appearances. They have their own culture and have the right to employ whatever laws they see fit on their world. The Edo were healthy, happy and apparently quite prosperous. Their system worked for them. By landing on their planet, Starfleet put themselves under the jurisdiction of the Edo. A first contact team is not an embassy. They do not enjoy diplomatic immunity.
__________________
We can admit that we're killers ... but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes! Knowing that we're not going to kill - today! - Kirk - A Taste of Armageddon
RPJOB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 23 2012, 08:30 PM   #37
Sandoval
Fleet Captain
 
Sandoval's Avatar
 
Re: What happens if someone from the past shows up...

RPJOB wrote: View Post
But that's not the penalty that the Edo specified for the crime Wesley committed. When Starfleet sets foot on an alien planet they should be under the laws of that planet. It's not like they were even invited. They simply showed up, beamed down and assumed that things worked the same there as they did in the Federation.
Tough luck. Regardless of whatever local laws are in place a Starfleet captain sitting in the command chair of an orbiting battleship wouldn't, for example let a ten-man away team be executed because they're wearing black in summer should that be deemed necessary by that planet's laws.

There are some universal constants, and crushing (pardon the pun) some flowers doesn't deserve death on whatever world you happen to be visiting.

As much of a prat as Wesley is...
Sandoval is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 24 2012, 12:09 AM   #38
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "Don't blame me--I voted for Jaresh-Inyo!"
Re: What happens if someone from the past shows up...

RPJOB wrote: View Post
But that's not the penalty that the Edo specified for the crime Wesley committed. When Starfleet sets foot on an alien planet they should be under the laws of that planet. It's not like they were even invited. They simply showed up, beamed down and assumed that things worked the same there as they did in the Federation. The Edo are not human, regardless of appearances. They have their own culture and have the right to employ whatever laws they see fit on their world. The Edo were healthy, happy and apparently quite prosperous. Their system worked for them. By landing on their planet, Starfleet put themselves under the jurisdiction of the Edo. A first contact team is not an embassy. They do not enjoy diplomatic immunity.
And yet being tolerant of other cultures should also carry obligations on the part of the Edo -- among them, explaining possible consequences for lawbreaking and not being rigid and inflexible when cultural misunderstandings like the Wesley Crusher incident develop. The Edo were being, frankly, ethnocentric by not allowing for cultural misunderstandings and insisting on their own legal absolutism to apply to people who had not been forward of their laws and did not have the opportunity to negotiate legal agreements about the applicability of those laws towards them.

That's why it wasn't cultural imperialism for Picard to remove Wesley from Edo custody. It would have been such if he had removed Wesley to the Enterprise and then continued to allow Starfleet officers to stay on Rubicon III, and if he had used the power of his ship to enable those officers to do whatever they want and force their will upon the Edo. But he didn't. He took Wesley back aboard the Enterprise, and then he left Rubicon III. The Edo continue to have their own laws, and the Federation is no longer on their turf. That's fair.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 26 2012, 09:41 AM   #39
Drago-Kazov
Fleet Captain
 
Re: What happens if someone from the past shows up...

The Edo continue to have their own laws, and the Federation is no longer on their turf. That's fair.
__________________
Since it was an awfull episode we will never see them again.
Drago-Kazov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 6 2012, 04:11 AM   #40
Turtletrekker
Vice Admiral
 
Turtletrekker's Avatar
 
Location: Tacoma, Washington
Re: What happens if someone from the past shows up...

I guess time-travel is one to get past a statute of limitations...
__________________
Whatever you celebrate this time of year-- be it Christmas, Hanukah, Ramadan, Kwanza, the Solstice, Life Day, Durin's Day, Festivus or whatever, let it be happy, joyful and safe.
Turtletrekker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 6 2012, 04:15 AM   #41
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: What happens if someone from the past shows up...

Turtletrekker wrote: View Post
I guess time-travel is one to get past a statute of limitations...
I covered that back in post #2 with the following link:

http://lawandthemultiverse.com/2011/...e-limitations/

The statute of limitations is suspended if you deliberately flee from justice. So unless the time travel is accidental -- or unless the legal system you're fleeing from collapses in the interim -- it wouldn't help you escape prosecution.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 6 2012, 06:39 PM   #42
RPJOB
Commander
 
RPJOB's Avatar
 
Re: What happens if someone from the past shows up...

Sci wrote: View Post
RPJOB wrote: View Post
But that's not the penalty that the Edo specified for the crime Wesley committed. When Starfleet sets foot on an alien planet they should be under the laws of that planet. It's not like they were even invited. They simply showed up, beamed down and assumed that things worked the same there as they did in the Federation. The Edo are not human, regardless of appearances. They have their own culture and have the right to employ whatever laws they see fit on their world. The Edo were healthy, happy and apparently quite prosperous. Their system worked for them. By landing on their planet, Starfleet put themselves under the jurisdiction of the Edo. A first contact team is not an embassy. They do not enjoy diplomatic immunity.
And yet being tolerant of other cultures should also carry obligations on the part of the Edo -- among them, explaining possible consequences for lawbreaking and not being rigid and inflexible when cultural misunderstandings like the Wesley Crusher incident develop. The Edo were being, frankly, ethnocentric by not allowing for cultural misunderstandings and insisting on their own legal absolutism to apply to people who had not been forward of their laws and did not have the opportunity to negotiate legal agreements about the applicability of those laws towards them.

That's why it wasn't cultural imperialism for Picard to remove Wesley from Edo custody. It would have been such if he had removed Wesley to the Enterprise and then continued to allow Starfleet officers to stay on Rubicon III, and if he had used the power of his ship to enable those officers to do whatever they want and force their will upon the Edo. But he didn't. He took Wesley back aboard the Enterprise, and then he left Rubicon III. The Edo continue to have their own laws, and the Federation is no longer on their turf. That's fair.
If a foreign national commits a crime in the United States is it fair then if they simply return to their home country?

Properly, nobody should beam down to a newly contacted planet until matters of laws and regulation are understood. You're putting yourself under those laws the minute you set foot on the planet.

It's not like Wesley was treated any differently than the Edo would have treated one of their own. The Mediators showed up very quickly, suggesting that there's a number of them. Apparently, justice is doled out on a regular basis on this planet. Wesley was treated the same as one of the Edo would have been. No more, no less.

Starfleet talks a good game about respecting the rights of other cultures but they sure like doing an end run around them when it's not convient.
__________________
We can admit that we're killers ... but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes! Knowing that we're not going to kill - today! - Kirk - A Taste of Armageddon
RPJOB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7 2012, 05:02 PM   #43
Drago-Kazov
Fleet Captain
 
Re: What happens if someone from the past shows up...

Killing Wesley then and there would had been great.
Drago-Kazov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7 2012, 05:06 PM   #44
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "Don't blame me--I voted for Jaresh-Inyo!"
Re: What happens if someone from the past shows up...

RPJOB wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
RPJOB wrote: View Post
But that's not the penalty that the Edo specified for the crime Wesley committed. When Starfleet sets foot on an alien planet they should be under the laws of that planet. It's not like they were even invited. They simply showed up, beamed down and assumed that things worked the same there as they did in the Federation. The Edo are not human, regardless of appearances. They have their own culture and have the right to employ whatever laws they see fit on their world. The Edo were healthy, happy and apparently quite prosperous. Their system worked for them. By landing on their planet, Starfleet put themselves under the jurisdiction of the Edo. A first contact team is not an embassy. They do not enjoy diplomatic immunity.
And yet being tolerant of other cultures should also carry obligations on the part of the Edo -- among them, explaining possible consequences for lawbreaking and not being rigid and inflexible when cultural misunderstandings like the Wesley Crusher incident develop. The Edo were being, frankly, ethnocentric by not allowing for cultural misunderstandings and insisting on their own legal absolutism to apply to people who had not been forward of their laws and did not have the opportunity to negotiate legal agreements about the applicability of those laws towards them.

That's why it wasn't cultural imperialism for Picard to remove Wesley from Edo custody. It would have been such if he had removed Wesley to the Enterprise and then continued to allow Starfleet officers to stay on Rubicon III, and if he had used the power of his ship to enable those officers to do whatever they want and force their will upon the Edo. But he didn't. He took Wesley back aboard the Enterprise, and then he left Rubicon III. The Edo continue to have their own laws, and the Federation is no longer on their turf. That's fair.
If a foreign national commits a crime in the United States is it fair then if they simply return to their home country?
If that foreign national is a citizen of a nation that had never contacted the United States before and if he had in no way been warned about what some of the laws of the U.S. were, and he found himself doing something he thought harmless which is common or acceptable in his culture? And if his crime is one which does not violate anyone else's rights under U.S. law?

Then yes. It would be unjust and unfair for the United States government to prosecute a foreign national from a newly-contacted culture, especially if the U.S. government had never explained its laws to the representatives of this new culture.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7 2012, 05:31 PM   #45
RPJOB
Commander
 
RPJOB's Avatar
 
Re: What happens if someone from the past shows up...

Sorry but no. When you enter a foreign country (or set foot on a newly contacted planet) it is your responsibility to be aware of what the local laws are. As they say, ignorance of the law is no excuse. Now, your newly arrived status might be seen as an extenuating circumstance and perhaps allow for a lesser punishment but it's not a carte blanche. That would not apply in Wesleys case because death was the only penalty provided for.

Their planet, their rules. Perhaps Starfleet should make first contact on board their ships until the legal details are known. This would only apply to races that are already aware of other intelligent life. For a true First Contact, Starfleet should have dedicated first contact specialists and leave the kids behind for a while.
__________________
We can admit that we're killers ... but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes! Knowing that we're not going to kill - today! - Kirk - A Taste of Armageddon
RPJOB is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:22 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.