RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,379
Posts: 5,446,861
Members: 24,973
Currently online: 597
Newest member: turndizy

TrekToday headlines

Crowded Coop Trek-Themed Bags and Wallets
By: T'Bonz on Oct 31

Original Series Hoodies
By: T'Bonz on Oct 31

Star Trek-Planet Of The Apes Comic Preview
By: T'Bonz on Oct 31

November-December 2014 Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Oct 31

Kruge Bobble Head
By: T'Bonz on Oct 30

Two Trek Actors In Green Room
By: T'Bonz on Oct 30

Trek UglyDolls First Look
By: T'Bonz on Oct 29

New Star Trek Select Action Figure
By: T'Bonz on Oct 29

Trek Actors In Elsa & Fred
By: T'Bonz on Oct 29

The Red Shirt Diaries #9
By: T'Bonz on Oct 28


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 6 2012, 12:08 AM   #1
Pawleygirl
Ensign
 
Location: San Diego, CA
first contact lack of common sense?

I also have a few questions regarding first contact...when the movie starts, the enterprise is out near the Romulan NZ scanning for whatever. From what I can recall, the RNZ is pretty far from earth, yet they're able to warp back to earth so quickly to join the battle against the borg. How is that possible that they can get there so quickly? Also why not stop first contact by destroying the Vulcan ships? Why even try to stop first contact? In that period in earth history, aren't the borg strong enough just to simply go down to earth where the majors powers are and just assimilate them? I love first contact, but that's always bugged me.
__________________
"Life forms.... You tiny little life forms..... You precious little life forms.... Where are you?"
Pawleygirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 6 2012, 12:41 AM   #2
Tiberius
Commodore
 
Re: first contact lack of common sense?

Pawleygirl wrote: View Post
I also have a few questions regarding first contact...when the movie starts, the enterprise is out near the Romulan NZ scanning for whatever. From what I can recall, the RNZ is pretty far from earth, yet they're able to warp back to earth so quickly to join the battle against the borg. How is that possible that they can get there so quickly?
The DITL website suggests that the battle actually went for a few days. The fleet engaged the Cube in the typhon sector (which is far enough from the core of the Federation that the Enterprise D was only the second ship to investigate it (after the Bozeman in Cause and Effect). The battle, according the DITL, lasted for a few days with the fleet attacking the Cube as they all made their way towards Earth.

Also why not stop first contact by destroying the Vulcan ships?
Maybe they didn't know the course the vulcans would be approaching earth from. Hard to know where to find them if you don't know which direction they are coming from.

Why even try to stop first contact?
Actually, the Borg seem to spend most of the movies trying to get in contact with the Borg living in that time period, with the deflector dish. It's only after the dish is destroyed that the Queen says there has been a change of plans and they start trying to stop first contact again.

In that period in earth history, aren't the borg strong enough just to simply go down to earth where the majors powers are and just assimilate them? I love first contact, but that's always bugged me.
When the Enterprise is going back in time, we see that Earth is indeed assimilated. They probably wanted to get the Enterprise out of the way first.
Tiberius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 6 2012, 01:45 PM   #3
SmoothieX
Vice Admiral
 
SmoothieX's Avatar
 
Location: Massachusetts
Re: first contact lack of common sense?

Also why not stop first contact by destroying the Vulcan ships?
Uhhh, they know that First Contact is the pivotal moment that leads to an end to war, poverty, hunger etc. for humanity. Why would you want to stop it?

(Alternately, if they went back in time another 60 years or so, and leveled Bozeman, MT, I wouldn't have met my ex-wife. Now that would be an academy award movie in my book.)
SmoothieX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 6 2012, 03:04 PM   #4
F. King Daniel
Admiral
 
F. King Daniel's Avatar
 
Location: King Daniel Into Darkness
Re: first contact lack of common sense?

Trek ships move at the speed of plot. According to TOS: "Where No Man...", "That Which Survives" and STV, the TOS Enterprise could have managed Voyager's 75-year galaxy-crossing journey in days or weeks.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
F. King Daniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 6 2012, 08:24 PM   #5
TiberiusMaximus
Fleet Captain
 
TiberiusMaximus's Avatar
 
Location: A ship, a living ship, full of strange alien lifeforms.
Re: first contact lack of common sense?

^^ Um, I think the OP is asking why the Borg didn't destroy the Vulcan ships.
__________________
"Quite possibly, the five Jem'Hadar could turn Data into a collection of four spasming limbs, one helpless torso, and one head that shouts insults at them like the Black Knight from the Monty Python sketch." -Timo Saloniemi
TiberiusMaximus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8 2012, 03:22 AM   #6
CobraCommander
Lieutenant Commander
 
CobraCommander's Avatar
 
Location: Nor Cal
Re: first contact lack of common sense?

You're right about it not making sense. In reality, the Borg only needed to send 50 cubes to guarantee the end of the Federation. Also, if the Borg wanted to time travel, why attract the Federation's attention doing it on Earth's doorstep? Cobra
CobraCommander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8 2012, 08:13 AM   #7
SonicRanger
Rear Admiral
 
SonicRanger's Avatar
 
Location: Sheffield, England
Re: first contact lack of common sense?

CobraCommander wrote: View Post
You're right about it not making sense. In reality, the Borg only needed to send 50 cubes to guarantee the end of the Federation. Also, if the Borg wanted to time travel, why attract the Federation's attention doing it on Earth's doorstep? Cobra
Presumably Borg temporal sensors have a very short range, so they needed to get close to Earth before figure out their time travel calculations or something.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Temporal_sensor
__________________
"STAR TREK is... Action - Adventure - Science Fiction."
-- Gene Roddenberry, 1964, top of the first page of his original pitch and outline for Star Trek
SonicRanger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8 2012, 10:24 AM   #8
Tiberius
Commodore
 
Re: first contact lack of common sense?

Another thing to remember is the message sent in Regeneration. It would have undoubtedly had information about the future. As well as future technological information it would have had something like, "In 2373, the Borg Queen will launch a mission in which a Sphere travels to Earth in a Cube. Attacked by Federation Forces, the Sphere leaves the Cube and uses a temporal rift to travel back in time to 2063. Once there, you will launch an attack on the Phoenix's hanger, but will be quickly destroyed. You must beam aboard the Enterprise with some drones and attempt to assimilate the ship. Once your attempt to create an interplexing beacon fails, attempt to destroy the Pheonix after it is launched. This attempt will also fail, and the drones aboard the Enterprise will all be destroyed. However, some drones on the surface that withstood the crash of the Sphere's wreckage will be able to send this message at a later date."

Now, if the Queen in 24th Century gets that message and attempts to do something different, it is possible that something will go wrong. For example, in Regeneration, we see they recover two drones, let's call them 1 of 2 and 2 of 2, or 1 and 2, respectively.

If the Queen decides to do something other than what the message said, she could make it impossible for 1 and 2 to send the message. Let's say that instead of sending the Sphere to Earth inside the Cube, she sends it by herself. In that case, without the Cube to protect the sphere, it's possible the fleet could have destroyed it, thus ending the mission and creating a problem - if 1 and 2 are killed, they won't exist in Regeneration to send the message, and thus the mission would never have been launched.

Or if the Queen decides to send the sphere back in time first and then travel to Earth. Then something could happen en route which would damage the sphere or kill 1 and 2. Again, the message is not sent.

In short, the Queen knew of only one way for her to have received that message, and that was to do exactly what the message described. And that's why she did it that way.
Tiberius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8 2012, 04:10 PM   #9
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: first contact lack of common sense?

The one thing we unarguably witness in ST:FC is the Borg attempting something awfully complicated, and using time travel for it.

The former aspect suggests their goal is not a simple one - because they almost invariably achieve simple goals through generous overkill, and basically never go for subtlety in things as mundane as assimilation of a culture.

The latter aspect suggests that whatever they try, they will be capable of trying it again, and again, and again, until they get it right. No need to be afraid of ruining a delicate balance, such as with the above musings, because if something goes horribly wrong, there's always the possibility of a second, completely different attempt. That is, the basic secret and technology of time travel isn't something the Borg have to pass on to themselves through a time loop: in the late 24th century, they will have the ability to build Timespheres no matter what.

The two aspects are somewhat counterbalancing: the ability to time travel would suggest the Borg eventually get exactly what they want, but since what they want is apparently very demanding, perhaps they will give up before reaching their goal?

We don't know if ST:FC depicted the ultimate attempt, hiding the existence of umpteen preceding iterative loops - or if we saw one of the middle iterations where the heroes factually triumphed and the Borg decided to try again a bit differently (and possibly a bit less interestingly).

I think that in no case should we assume that this was an attempt to assimilate Earth. The Borg always do that differently: we have witnessed invincible fleets of Cubes on at least two VOY occasions, and Guinan spoke of "swarming" in the El-Aurian case as well. There is also very little reason to believe a single word of what the Queen said. Nor does this appear to be a standard scouting mission, or standard anything. Arguing that it doesn't meet our expectations doesn't get us anywhere, because our expectations for something this exotic will be wrong by default.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8 2012, 04:24 PM   #10
Tiberius
Commodore
 
Re: first contact lack of common sense?

Timo wrote: View Post
The former aspect suggests their goal is not a simple one - because they almost invariably achieve simple goals through generous overkill, and basically never go for subtlety in things as mundane as assimilation of a culture.
They did in Dark Frontier.
Tiberius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8 2012, 04:40 PM   #11
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: first contact lack of common sense?

What was subtle about "Dark Frontier"?

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8 2012, 04:44 PM   #12
Tyberius
Commander
 
Tyberius's Avatar
 
Location: Twenty million die by fire if I am weak.
Re: first contact lack of common sense?

I don't think the goal of the Borg in First Contact was to stop first contact or assimilate earth of the past at all. That was what our protagonists thought and said, but I think they didn't have the opportunity to think it all the way through.

I think the Borg were simply seeding the past, to allow the Federation to grow into a power from which the future Borg could learn. I also believe that had the Borg not gone into the past, first contact likely never would have happened at all.
Tyberius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9 2012, 01:23 AM   #13
Tiberius
Commodore
 
Re: first contact lack of common sense?

Timo wrote: View Post
What was subtle about "Dark Frontier"?

Timo Saloniemi
Using a virus to assimilate Earth instyead of beaming down lots of drones and using hand tubes to assimilate people. It would take months though.
QUEEN: Our previous attempts to assimilate them were all direct assaults. They failed. So we've created a more surreptitious strategy.

SEVEN: You intend to detonate a biogenic charge in Earth's atmosphere.

QUEEN: It would infect all life forms with nanoprobe viruses. Assimilation would be gradual. By the time they realised what was happening, half their population would be drones.
Definitely more subtle than the Borg's usual strategy.
Tiberius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9 2012, 10:49 AM   #14
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: first contact lack of common sense?

Ah, right, I thought you meant the assimilation we actually saw where the Queen's ship was but part of a customary armada.

I wonder if there was any truth to what the Queen was describing to Seven... The Queen's main interest appeared to be Seven, after all, not Earth.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9 2012, 12:02 PM   #15
Tiberius
Commodore
 
Re: first contact lack of common sense?

Timo wrote: View Post
Ah, right, I thought you meant the assimilation we actually saw where the Queen's ship was but part of a customary armada.

I wonder if there was any truth to what the Queen was describing to Seven... The Queen's main interest appeared to be Seven, after all, not Earth.

Timo Saloniemi
Personally, I see the Queen as a spoiled brat. She's never done anything to dispell that notion. So when she said that she allowed Seven to leave the Collective in the first place, I see her as speaking out of her ass. She saw the whole thing as a way to jerk with Voyager and possibly get revenge on Seven for leaving.

But I do think that the Queen had an interest in Earth. What we've seen supports that.
Tiberius is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:16 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.