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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old November 3 2012, 06:55 PM   #31
LobsterAfternoon
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Section 31 derives its (supposed) legitimacy from Article 14, Section 31 of the Starfleet charter. But the thing is, it's the Earth Starfleet charter, not the Federation Starfleet. So in a very real sense, Section 31 lost all claims to legitimacy when the Federation was formed, since the two Starfleets are not the same organization.
We don't know that the Earth Starfleet charter wasn't then used as a guide to Federation Starfleet's charter. We know that a ton of facets of Earth Starfleet (rank structure, starship design, etc) were integrated into Federation Starfleet. Who is to say that Section 31 didn't also make the cut?
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Old November 3 2012, 06:56 PM   #32
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

LobsterAfternoon wrote: View Post
The US Army had soldiers peeing on enemy corpses. Was that act a crime or is the whole US Army a crime?
The difference is, while it is possible for individual soldiers to commit crimes, the actual US Army is a completely legitimate organization with a chain of command and responsibility to the government. The Army, along with all other armed services, has to answer to the President. Section 31 answers to no one. Doesn't that sound dangerous?

As for the two Starfleets: While there are some obvious things, such as rank structure, that the Federation Starfleet inherited from Earth Starfleet, that still doesn't change the fact that they are completely separate organizations. The Federation Starfleet, for example, also fulfills military/defense functions, which the Earth Starfleet did not. In any case, to assume that the Earth Starfleet charter was simply copied, unaltered, for use in the Federation Starfleet, is not terribly likely.
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Old November 3 2012, 07:10 PM   #33
LobsterAfternoon
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
LobsterAfternoon wrote: View Post
The US Army had soldiers peeing on enemy corpses. Was that act a crime or is the whole US Army a crime?
The difference is, while it is possible for individual soldiers to commit crimes, the actual US Army is a completely legitimate organization with a chain of command and responsibility to the government. The Army, along with all other armed services, has to answer to the President. Section 31 answers to no one. Doesn't that sound dangerous?

As for the two Starfleets: While there are some obvious things, such as rank structure, that the Federation Starfleet inherited from Earth Starfleet, that still doesn't change the fact that they are completely separate organizations. The Federation Starfleet, for example, also fulfills military/defense functions, which the Earth Starfleet did not. In any case, to assume that the Earth Starfleet charter was simply copied, unaltered, for use in the Federation Starfleet, is not terribly likely.
I never said that it was copied unaltered. Merely that some aspects were kept, and those aspects could include Section 31.

Additionally, we don't really know that 31 answers to no one. Sisko's discussions with Starfleet Command didn't suggest that this was a rogue organization operating without consent. He got vague answers that neither confirmed nor denied its existence. Whether they answer to a political or military leader in secret or to no one is unknown.
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Old November 3 2012, 07:10 PM   #34
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

LobsterAfternoon wrote: View Post

Additionally, we don't really know that 31 answers to no one.
Actually, yes, we do.
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Old November 3 2012, 07:12 PM   #35
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
LobsterAfternoon wrote: View Post

Additionally, we don't really know that 31 answers to no one.
Actually, yes, we do.
Citation needed.
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Old November 3 2012, 07:25 PM   #36
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

^ The very first episode it ever appeared in - DS9's "Inquisition".
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Old November 3 2012, 08:05 PM   #37
LobsterAfternoon
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

Apologies, it's been a while since I've seen the ep. Remember the basic idea, but what's the dialogue that makes it clear that it's definitively not a federation agency?
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Old November 3 2012, 11:03 PM   #38
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

How do you take down an organization that has no headquarters and all of their operations and personnel are only known in the minds of select people? You would never be able to know who they all are, let alone take them all down and they have operatives even in the governments of the major powers of the AQ. We don't even know if they have a basic hierarchy or leader. Section 31 is whatever and whoever it needs to be to carry out it's objectives.

Bashir: "Doesn't Section 31 have its own doctors?"

Yes -- Julian, they do.
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Old November 4 2012, 05:04 PM   #39
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ But based on what we've actually seen Section 31 do, that is clearly not the case. It is not a true black ops agency, since even that would imply some kind of governmental oversight and accountability. Section 31 has none of that. They literally do whatever they want to do. Not even the blackest of black ops organizations would stoop that low. Like I said...Section 31 is nothing more than a criminal conspiracy.
Oh? You assume that not even the blackest of the black would stoop that low.

As Yoda would say, "Do not assume anything, Obi-Wan. Clear...your mind must be."

After all--see "In The Pale Moonlight". Effectively, bringing Romulans into the War meant putting countless Romulan lives--military and civilian--all in danger of being slaughtered by the Dominion.

And all of that...based on a lie.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
LobsterAfternoon wrote: View Post

Additionally, we don't really know that 31 answers to no one.
Actually, yes, we do.
Not really. Sloan said "we're autonomous". The Federation Starfleet Charter said they were autonomous.

Julian noted 31 was "with no specific orders". So did the charter.

"Accountable to no one but yourselves?" Sloan simply replies, "You make it sound so ominous"--implying, perhaps, "I wouldn't put it that way...."

Two words--plausible deniability.

FKnight wrote: View Post
How do you take down an organization that has no headquarters and all of their operations and personnel are only known in the minds of select people? You would never be able to know who they all are, let alone take them all down and they have operatives even in the governments of the major powers of the AQ.
Exactly. Look--regardless of what was written in The Good That Men Do...it was a pipe dream of the writers, at best.

(Shameless plug--in a fanfic of mine, "Suspicious Minds", I have a certain agent note to someone we know that the Bureau can't be "rounded up"--but that, rather, 31 may need to, every once in a while "clean house"--and lead the "moralists" to think that the organization is dead.)

We don't even know if they have a basic hierarchy or leader. Section 31 is whatever and whoever it needs to be to carry out it's objectives.

Bashir: "Doesn't Section 31 have its own doctors?"

Yes -- Julian, they do.
Mm-hmm! Although, we do have Sloan imply a cell-like structure in "Extreme Measures". And the VOY novel in the Section 31 miniseries indicates that these cells have "Directors"--Sloan being one of them.
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Old November 4 2012, 06:44 PM   #40
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

Supreme Dittodrone wrote: View Post
Oh? You assume that not even the blackest of the black would stoop that low.

As Yoda would say, "Do not assume anything, Obi-Wan. Clear...your mind must be."
Perhaps in the 'real world', that might be true. But this is the Federation. They're better than that.

After all--see "In The Pale Moonlight". Effectively, bringing Romulans into the War meant putting countless Romulan lives--military and civilian--all in danger of being slaughtered by the Dominion.

And all of that...based on a lie.
To be fair, everything that happened in that episode was a result of Sisko's own personal choices. It was his idea to bring the Romulans into the war in that way. The Federation at large would not have done that. I'm not sure that even Section 31 would have.

Sloan said "we're autonomous". The Federation Starfleet Charter said they were autonomous.
but as I said, the only authorization for Section 31 that we know of comes from the Earth Starfleet Charter, not the Federation Starfleet Charter.

"Accountable to no one but yourselves?" Sloan simply replies, "You make it sound so ominous"--implying, perhaps, "I wouldn't put it that way...."
Sloan never actually denies it, though.

Here's a thought: We know from "Extreme Measures" that Section 31 had an operative inside Jaresh-Inyo's cabinet. Logically speaking, an organization that is accountable to a President will not have an undercover operative inside that President's cabinet. You don't spy on a President you're loyal to.
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Old November 4 2012, 08:01 PM   #41
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

What's the debate about again? How bad they are? Come on if their actions don't demonstrate them to be morally questionable, the writers put a subtle hint in there with the Gestapo uniforms.

Sure, they do whatever they think to advance the Federation. You can argue ideologies all you want, but they seem to be danged effective.
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Old November 4 2012, 08:03 PM   #42
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

I think the debate has morphed into if they are actually rogue or not.

As for having an operative in the Fed President's cabinet - is that any different than the FBI occasionally investigating political corruption in our government?
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Old November 4 2012, 08:30 PM   #43
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

Tom wrote: View Post
So I was thinking of writing some post-DS9 (maybe abut 10-15 years after) fan fiction.

I was thinking about doing something with Section 31but some questions popped up. After Sloan died we were left to wonder is is Section 31 is gone? was it just Sloan?

Lets say it was not just Sloan, if there were other involved and Starfleet officials caught up and apprehended them. Could Section 31 ever be a legit yet still secret agency with in Starfleet?

Does section 31 have to much of a bad history (attempted genocide etc..) for Starfleet to use them in a more controlled manor?

Should Starfleet abolish S31 and try to have some other type of black-ops agency?

Should S31 always remain a more rogue agency that answers to no one in order to protect the Federation?
1. The DS9 relaunch literature establishes that Section 31 is bigger than Sloan and that there are other agents. This is taken up in other Trek Lit. works as well, the best example being the S31 novel mini-series. Supporting the idea that Section 31 is bigger than one man is also their appearance on ENT.

2. With Trek Lit., there are hints that Section 31 will eventually get its comeuppance. I believe that's hinted at in the future sections of the ENT novel, "The Good that Men Do". As to the second half of that question, I think that's something you could explore in your fanfic.

3. Section 31's history is a subjective thing since we really haven't seen any official history besides their involvement in the Klingon augment incident. Trek Lit. made the Omega molecule disaster and the assassination of Gorkon part of a Section 31 plot, but of course that's non canon. So, a lot of their history is mere speculation and ripe for you to fill in the blanks.

4. Abolishing Section 31 is another decision up to you. I know I've seen one fan fic where have a similar organization (though I think it is concurrent with Section 31). If you feel that Section 31 doesn't fit your fan fiction but you want something along that line, why not get rid of them? The section does have haters in the fanfic community, along with supporters, so I don't think getting rid of them will be meet with a lot of anger. Even fans might be interested to see what you're planning with your new group.

5. In my own fanfic, I pretty much do what you're asking in this question. I like S31 and have used them quite a bit. So I would say yes to this question. But once again, you've got to do what's best to fit your story or series.
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Old November 4 2012, 08:35 PM   #44
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

LobsterAfternoon wrote: View Post
As for having an operative in the Fed President's cabinet - is that any different than the FBI occasionally investigating political corruption in our government?
An official investigation, conducted by a legitimate organization with actual authority and accountability, is light-years away from illegal espionage conducted by criminals, which is what Section 31 was doing.
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Old November 4 2012, 10:34 PM   #45
LobsterAfternoon
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
LobsterAfternoon wrote: View Post
As for having an operative in the Fed President's cabinet - is that any different than the FBI occasionally investigating political corruption in our government?
An official investigation, conducted by a legitimate organization with actual authority and accountability, is light-years away from illegal espionage conducted by criminals, which is what Section 31 was doing.
Again, what proof do we have that they are doing illegal espionage and that they are criminals? We have no proof that they aren't part of the Federation's legitimate structure, just proof that they operate in the shadows.
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