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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Immortal Coil.
Outstanding 28 46.67%
Above Average 29 48.33%
Average 2 3.33%
Below Average 1 1.67%
Poor 0 0%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 3 2012, 07:48 PM   #46
Markonian
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Re: TNG: Immortal Coil by Jeffrey Lang Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I bought it as a brand-new ebook, though I own a years-old German translation in dead-tree format.
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Old November 4 2012, 04:21 AM   #47
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Re: TNG: Immortal Coil by Jeffrey Lang Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I'm rather thrilled that this novel is polling so high. It really did have some strong detractors in its day, and I expected them to chime in. It's probably one of my favourite ST novels.
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Old November 4 2012, 06:08 AM   #48
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Re: TNG: Immortal Coil by Jeffrey Lang Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Out of curiosity, could you talk a bit about what those detractors didn't like back then? Still makes sense to preserve the, eh, historical memory IMHO.
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Old November 4 2012, 06:21 AM   #49
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Re: TNG: Immortal Coil by Jeffrey Lang Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I don't remember for sure, but I think when I read it I remember people complaining about how they thought that bringing in so many of the different AIs and characters from other parts of the franchise was a case of small universe syndrome.
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Old November 4 2012, 08:48 AM   #50
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Re: TNG: Immortal Coil by Jeffrey Lang Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JD wrote: View Post
I don't remember for sure, but I think when I read it I remember people complaining about how they thought that bringing in so many of the different AIs and characters from other parts of the franchise was a case of small universe syndrome.
Yep. The complaints came from TNG fans who had little knowledge of TOS. As mentioned in my first post in this thread, despite the fact that pre-Memory Alpha lists of characters/actors (from Usenet and GEnie) were a very convenient source of quick research, some TNG fans were scathing that the novel didn't contain footnotes to all of the TOS and "Questor Tapes" references, or a dramatis personae with the full cast explained.

A few TNG-only fans had enjoyed the book, then got perturbed that they'd missed something when they heard others complaining.

And my point was that picking up a novel and noticing it was full of footnotes can be very daunting. (Marshak & Culbreath used to use them, but this one would be chock full!) The way that all the AI references were used, it was never essential to have the back stories, but they were very cool little easter eggs for those in the know. I wasn't expecting any cameos; each new one was a delight and, I thought, well used in the story!

I reckon there'd be some early negative reviews over on Amazon. I don't like to wallow in negativity, so I'd rather not look.
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Last edited by Therin of Andor; November 5 2012 at 06:29 AM. Reason: Memory Alpha didn't exist till 2003
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Old November 4 2012, 10:23 AM   #51
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Re: TNG: Immortal Coil by Jeffrey Lang Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Judith Sisko wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Patrick O'Brien wrote: View Post
Enjoyable book. I hope Jeff takes Dave out for a drink with the royalty check he gets, from all of us reading the book
I doubt the check is that big. Most of us already owned it and those that didn't likely bought it second-hand.
That makes me wonder. Does an eBook sale pay as much royalty as a MMPB? This might have been discussed before and I've forgotten.
I bought it new as an eBook as well. I certainly hope he got as much in royalties as a dead tree book, since it cost me a dollar more than the current dead tree books. (Not complaining on my own behalf, because I know the prices haven't gone up in a long time; more along the lines of the injustice it would be to Mr. Lang.)
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Old November 4 2012, 10:24 AM   #52
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Re: TNG: Immortal Coil by Jeffrey Lang Review Thread (Spoilers!)

^ I recall this question coming up before and one of the authors answering the royalities are indeed the same.
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Old November 4 2012, 01:42 PM   #53
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Re: TNG: Immortal Coil by Jeffrey Lang Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
JD wrote: View Post
I don't remember for sure, but I think when I read it I remember people complaining about how they thought that bringing in so many of the different AIs and characters from other parts of the franchise was a case of small universe syndrome.
Yep. The complaints came from TNG fans who had little knowledge of TOS. As mentioned in my first post in this thread, despite the fact that Memory Alpha is a very convenient source of quick research, some TNG fans were scathing that the novel didn't contain footnotes to all of the TOS and "Questor Tapes" references, or a dramatis personae with the full cast explained.
Memory Alpha did not yet exist in 2002. And I doubt that anyone was really asking for footnotes.
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Old November 4 2012, 01:55 PM   #54
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Re: TNG: Immortal Coil by Jeffrey Lang Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Just finished it. Loved it.

It is small universe-y, but when the subject matter is an immortal and his ageless android friends, it's pretty justifiable.

Onward, to Persistence of Memory!
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Old November 5 2012, 06:27 AM   #55
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Re: TNG: Immortal Coil by Jeffrey Lang Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Steve Mollmann wrote: View Post
Memory Alpha did not yet exist in 2002.
Really? Wow!

Well there were certainly some online resources in those days. I moved to my new house in early 2000 and I rarely had to duck into my new Star Trek room for the physical reference books because most of my questions could easily be resolved by a quick Google.

Okay, "the English-language Memory Alpha started in November 2003". So there must have been some other sites I was using at the time. Certainly there were readily available online lists of TOS characters/actors since the old pre-Internet days of Usenet and GEnie, and those lists were later searchable via Google "News Groups" searchs.

And I doubt that anyone was really asking for footnotes.
They were. Which is why I brought up Marshak & Culbreath, both then and now. I debated with the issue endlessly on Psi Phi and there was no way to convince them that footnotes would be as much a turn-off to readers as they thought they'd be useful for others. They wanted either footnotes or a full explanatory list of characters printed in the front of the novel.
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Old November 5 2012, 10:00 AM   #56
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Re: TNG: Immortal Coil by Jeffrey Lang Review Thread (Spoilers!)

It''s funny, I just read "Persistence of Memory", not realizing that it was more or less directly tied to "Immortal Coil". Had I known, I'd have been even more excited than I already was.

One of the things I felt sad about with the current age of Trek Lit was that much of the current paradigm of fantastic stories and well developed insights into the characters and continuity didn't really hit it's full stride until post-Nemesis, which meant that Data didn't get much of the kind of character treatment that the rest of the crew has gotten in recent years. "Immortal Coil" holds a special place in my heart as one of the only pieces from the 'modern' period (outside of a couple of subplots in the "A time to..." run) that gave a serious attempt at doing just that.
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Old November 6 2012, 11:57 AM   #57
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Re: TNG: Immortal Coil by Jeffrey Lang Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
JD wrote: View Post
I don't remember for sure, but I think when I read it I remember people complaining about how they thought that bringing in so many of the different AIs and characters from other parts of the franchise was a case of small universe syndrome.
Yep. The complaints came from TNG fans who had little knowledge of TOS. As mentioned in my first post in this thread, despite the fact that pre-Memory Alpha lists of characters/actors (from Usenet and GEnie) were a very convenient source of quick research, some TNG fans were scathing that the novel didn't contain footnotes to all of the TOS and "Questor Tapes" references, or a dramatis personae with the full cast explained.

A few TNG-only fans had enjoyed the book, then got perturbed that they'd missed something when they heard others complaining.

And my point was that picking up a novel and noticing it was full of footnotes can be very daunting. (Marshak & Culbreath used to use them, but this one would be chock full!) The way that all the AI references were used, it was never essential to have the back stories, but they were very cool little easter eggs for those in the know. I wasn't expecting any cameos; each new one was a delight and, I thought, well used in the story!

I reckon there'd be some early negative reviews over on Amazon. I don't like to wallow in negativity, so I'd rather not look.
I never understood those complaints. When I saw those references, I simply thought "Interesting, I'll have to look that one up!" and dig out the TOS Compendium or talked (the horror!) to my mom who's a big TOS fan.

Plus, I know I'm in the minority when I say this, but I would have loved footnotes. I love the footnotes in Don Quixote (but then they were part of the story).
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Old November 6 2012, 01:18 PM   #58
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Re: TNG: Immortal Coil by Jeffrey Lang Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Evil Headhunter wrote: View Post
I know I'm in the minority when I say this, but I would have loved footnotes. I love the footnotes in Don Quixote (but then they were part of the story).
I have bought an annotated version of "The Hunting of the Snark", and seen one for "The Hobbit", but these are things you buy when you've read the original so often that you find yourself wanting more info or interpretations that are not readily available.
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Old November 6 2012, 08:08 PM   #59
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Re: TNG: Immortal Coil by Jeffrey Lang Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Don't forget about the Discworld books. Some of the funniest stuff in those is in the footnotes.
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Old November 6 2012, 09:08 PM   #60
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Re: TNG: Immortal Coil by Jeffrey Lang Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
I debated with the issue endlessly on Psi Phi and there was no way to convince them that footnotes would be as much a turn-off to readers as they thought they'd be useful for others. They wanted either footnotes or a full explanatory list of characters printed in the front of the novel.
Bizarre.

You don't even know that there's all that universe-bridging material until you've read through the book; why wouldn't people have wanted, say, an index in the back?
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