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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old November 2 2012, 03:34 PM   #16
sonak
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

section 31 was disbanded after they eventually came to realize that it was a pretty silly idea in the first place.
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Old November 2 2012, 04:49 PM   #17
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

Do we know for certain that Section 31's existence is illegal? Certainly we know that some of their actions are reprehensible, if not illegal under Federation law. But Does that mean the organization's existence itself is a crime? The fact that the Fed Council and Starfleet Command both refuse to deny its existence, as well as the fact that Sloane appeared to wield both unofficial authority (kidnapping Bashir) and official authority (getting himself posted to the Bellerephon), suggests that Section 31 is an official organization that is sometimes acting improperly. In this sense, is it any different than when, in the real world, our treasury secretary doesn't pay his taxes? And given that we're told that Section 31 is part of the original Starfleet charter, isn't its existence legitimate?
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Old November 2 2012, 04:57 PM   #18
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

LobsterAfternoon wrote: View Post
Do we know for certain that Section 31's existence is illegal? Certainly we know that some of their actions are reprehensible, if not illegal under Federation law. But Does that mean the organization's existence itself is a crime?
Yes, it does mean exactly that. Section 31 routinely violates Federation law whenever it suits them.
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Old November 2 2012, 06:37 PM   #19
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

We do know from Enterprise it existed before the Federation. But is it in Federation's charter (under section 31 lol)? is there on screen canon to support that?
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Old November 2 2012, 08:51 PM   #20
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

Tom wrote: View Post
We do know from Enterprise it existed before the Federation. But is it in Federation's charter (under section 31 lol)? is there on screen canon to support that?
Have we even seen the Federation charter onscreen? I know we've heard references to it, but I don't think we've seen the actual document.
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Old November 2 2012, 09:24 PM   #21
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

Section 31 derives its (supposed) legitimacy from Article 14, Section 31 of the Starfleet charter. But the thing is, it's the Earth Starfleet charter, not the Federation Starfleet. So in a very real sense, Section 31 lost all claims to legitimacy when the Federation was formed, since the two Starfleets are not the same organization.
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Old November 3 2012, 03:06 AM   #22
St. William Of Levittown
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

^Depends. If you go by the books--Section 31: Cloak has Kirk look up the Federation Starfleet Charter--Section 31 (presumably of Article 14). Lo and behold, said section establishes an "autonomous investigative agency" with broad discretionary powers over non-specific matters.


Also...there's been a theory that the "unsanctioned" state of Section 31 isn't "actual": it's an issue of plausible deniability, a la the IMF of Mission: Impossible. ("As always, if any of your team is caught or killed, the secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions.") Connecting that with the Charter...you have black ops at its finest. 31, then, would actually be a branch of SI--which was precisely what Sloan described it to be. SI "officially" disavows any knowledge of its activities--and so on.
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Old November 3 2012, 03:25 AM   #23
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

^ But based on what we've actually seen Section 31 do, that is clearly not the case. It is not a true black ops agency, since even that would imply some kind of governmental oversight and accountability. Section 31 has none of that. They literally do whatever they want to do. Not even the blackest of black ops organizations would stoop that low. Like I said...Section 31 is nothing more than a criminal conspiracy.
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Old November 3 2012, 09:07 AM   #24
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

So - some proposals in this thread are to destroy S31 and create a branch of starfleet intelligence that uses the same amoral methods in pursuit of the same goals.
Same difference.

Just bring S31 into the fold - to become answerable to the democratically elected leaders of the federation (and, for all we know, it already is - that's definitely NOT something Sloan/S31 would advertise) - and you have your highly efficient espionage/black ops agency, as opposed to a bunch of rookies that don't know what they're doing.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Not even the blackest of black ops organizations would stoop that low.
Eh...to be young and naive...
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Last edited by Edit_XYZ; November 3 2012 at 01:33 PM.
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Old November 3 2012, 03:53 PM   #25
sonak
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
So - some proposals in this thread are to destroy S31 and create a branch of starfleet intelligence that uses the same amoral methods in pursuit of the same goals.
Same difference.

Just bring S31 into the fold - to become answerable to the democratically elected leaders of the federation (and, for all we know, it already is - that's definitely NOT something Sloan/S31 would advertise) - and you have your highly efficient espionage/black ops agency, as opposed to a bunch of rookies that don't know what they're doing.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Not even the blackest of black ops organizations would stoop that low.
Eh...to be young and naive...

exactly why I keep saying in these threads about Sec. 31 that it's a silly concept. Why does it have to be a super-secret off-the-books group? It's basically just what a darker version of Starfleet Intelligence already is, so... have it be a division of Starfleet Intelligence.


This "secret organization" stuff belongs with magic decoder rings in cereal boxes.
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Old November 3 2012, 04:30 PM   #26
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Just bring S31 into the fold - to become answerable to the democratically elected leaders of the federation
You already have Starfleet Intelligence for that. Anything that SI can't do, doesn't deserve to be done.
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Old November 3 2012, 04:51 PM   #27
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

The first rule at Section 31 is...........you don't talk about Section 31.

Seriously, I too would love to see it 'brought down", it did seem that they were leaning in that direction since each of the novels in that series ended with the respective captains becoming aware of that organization. It could be a great read and at the end of the story, those who brought them to bear could find out about some of the threats they'd "taken care of" and would wonder if they'd done the "right" thing.
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Old November 3 2012, 05:30 PM   #28
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

Just bring S31 into the fold - to become answerable to the democratically elected leaders of the federation
But that doesn't work, because doing so would defeat the entire purpose of S31's existence. The whole point is that they answer to no one so they can do whatever is "necessary" to "protect" the Federation.

Not saying I agree with their methods, but legitimacy and S31 simply aren't compatible.
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Old November 3 2012, 06:10 PM   #29
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Just bring S31 into the fold - to become answerable to the democratically elected leaders of the federation
You already have Starfleet Intelligence for that. Anything that SI can't do, doesn't deserve to be done.
Really?
Starfleet Intelligence only remarks itself by its uncompromising incompetency:
Off the top of my head: the romulans knew about 'tin man' in real time (after tin man was found by a federation probe); idem about Pegasus' phase cloack location; etc, etc.
SI could not discover a spy if the federation depended on it: a romulan posing as federation ambassador for many years, gathering huge amounts of classified information; another spy for the romulans, stealing enterprises' warp core; etc, etc.

This list goes on and on: romulans, cardassians, dominion, etc - practically everyone who tried - bitch slapped SI.
SI, by proving itself to be a joke again and again, makes the best argument for the necessity of S31.

TiberiusMaximus wrote: View Post
Just bring S31 into the fold - to become answerable to the democratically elected leaders of the federation
But that doesn't work, because doing so would defeat the entire purpose of S31's existence. The whole point is that they answer to no one so they can do whatever is "necessary" to "protect" the Federation.

Not saying I agree with their methods, but legitimacy and S31 simply aren't compatible.
Section 31, article 14.
The very name of S31 yearns for legitimacy.
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Old November 3 2012, 06:54 PM   #30
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
LobsterAfternoon wrote: View Post
Do we know for certain that Section 31's existence is illegal? Certainly we know that some of their actions are reprehensible, if not illegal under Federation law. But Does that mean the organization's existence itself is a crime?
Yes, it does mean exactly that. Section 31 routinely violates Federation law whenever it suits them.
why does it mean that the organization itself is a crime? The US Army had soldiers peeing on enemy corpses. Was that act a crime or is the whole US Army a crime?
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