TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

[Markonian]

I'm still reading but closing in on the ending.

So far, I'm only confused by the fact that Leah Brahms isn't mentioned. Weren't she and Geordie supposed to marry? They don't get any younger and it's time for some children.

Also, it just hit me that Šmrhová is the tactical officer from Countdown. Thus, the female pilot is likely Joanna Faur. Cool tidbit.

[Christopher]

Markonian wrote:

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So far, I'm only confused by the fact that Leah Brahms isn't mentioned. Weren't she and Geordie supposed to marry? They don't get any younger and it's time for some children.

"Supposed to" according to what? We've seen many times that any given glimpse of the future in Trek is just one possible path.

[Hartzilla2007]

Christopher wrote:

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"Supposed to" according to what? We've seen many times that any given glimpse of the future in Trek is just one possible path.

Well theres also the fact that Indistinguishable From Magic kind of had them dating.

[BillJ]

Christopher wrote:

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So while this new entity has all of Data's memories, he still has Soong's brain structure, which could mean he'll retain aspects of Soong's psychology or personality. Or that the parts of the two beings could synergize in unpredictable ways.

And again, my point is NOT that anyone has to believe it really isn't Data or that it really is. My point is that it doesn't matter. Those who want to believe it's the same being are perfectly able to do so if that's what satisfies them. But those who want to believe it isn't are equally justified to come to that conclusion. There's no point arguing over it because it satisfies both groups.

But whether you think it's the same Data or not, he's still changed. It's not just a return to the status quo. He won't just be back at the ops station on the Enterprise giving exposition. He's got a new outlook on life, a new set of goals. He's turned down the offer to return to Starfleet and gone off on a new quest of his own, seeking the Commonwealth of AIs. He can even use contractions freely now. As I've been saying, if you're going to resurrect a character, that's the right way to do it -- by making it a new direction for the character rather than just a lazy reset.

Everything you've stated here points to Data 2.0. I'm not sure how anyone can interpret it any other way. Different body and different operating system plus not having all of the originals memories. How could he be the same person when he missed a defining moment of his existence?

Our resurrected Data is a copy of the original. A clone from a memory perspective. I'm not criticizing the method, I personally think it was the best we could hope for.

[JD]

I've never understood why saying that something is like comic book is used as a negative? Sure they might not always be the pinnacle of good story telling, but they've also been around for decades, made billions of dollars, launched some hugely popular movie and TV franchises, and introduced cultural icons like Batman, Superman, and Spider-Man. I don't see where any of those is a negative.

[Markonian]

Christopher wrote:

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"Supposed to" according to what? We've seen many times that any given glimpse of the future in Trek is just one possible path.

I know, the future in Trek is not set in stone. However, the potential futures we've seen, in the cases where they weren't completely averted, are a suitable roadmap. Although it doesn't equal 'destiny', it is likely that the characters, based on circumstances, make the same decisions for the future.

Therefore, unless these aspects of future development are unequivocally averted, I like to think that:
* Beverly will become captain of the Pasteur
* Worf joins the KDF, becomes General and later member of the High Council
* Geordi marries Leah
etc.

I like to think this is going to happen but I will not be upset if it doesn't. It's like a glimpse beyond the horizon but we may change our direction. That okay?

Concerning the TPoM: Part 2 was the most fascninating part, Imho, while Part 3 featured the thrilling resolution. Soong's return seems logical in hindsight now and not in any way contrived. Data's reincarnation pushed the benchmark into "Outstanding" and I like to ponder his future: Resurrection of Lal, an army of Lores, (full) Commander Data as Worf's/Picard's XO, captain of the Enterprise with La Forge as XO, special asset (like Seven of Nine in the 2380s)? The possibilities are almost endless.

In addition, with Data 2.0 having all the knowledge of Dr. Soong, Myriad Universe's Brave New World-like possibilities come to mind.

[Christopher]

BillJ wrote:

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Everything you've stated here points to Data 2.0. I'm not sure how anyone can interpret it any other way. Different body and different operating system plus not having all of the originals memories. How could he be the same person when he missed a defining moment of his existence?

Sorry, I thought you were saying that you thought it was the original Data returned. I guess I misread you.

But while I agree with your interpretation that it's not really the same person, I certainly can see how other people could interpret it differently, depending on their beliefs about what constitutes identity and their preferences about having the original character back. They could feel that a person with the same memories is the same person, even if he's gained some new abilities or quirks, because they want it to be the same person. And if that's what they want to believe, the book allows for that interpretation. After all, the nature of identity is a complicated philosophical question, too unclear to make pat assumptions about.

Markonian wrote:

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I know, the future in Trek is not set in stone. However, the potential futures we've seen, in the cases where they weren't completely averted, are a suitable roadmap. Although it doesn't equal 'destiny', it is likely that the characters, based on circumstances, make the same decisions for the future.

Except that the characters don't make any decisions because they don't exist. The writers make the decisions about what happens to the characters, based on what they think will make the best story. That's the whole underlying reason why the future is treated as mutable in Trek: so that writers won't feel any pressure to have the characters act out the same futures that past episodes have shown, so that they'll be free to take the characters in whatever directions best suit the stories they have to tell. So any theories about roadmaps or probable futures or whatever fall apart the minute a writer or editor decides a character's future has to play out differently.

[BillJ]

Christopher wrote:

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Sorry, I thought you were saying that you thought it was the original Data returned. I guess I misread you.

Fair enough. Maybe I wasn't quite clear in my original post.

[JoeZhang]

Picked this up on a whim - pretty good and I cheered as the offensively bland Choudhury bit the dust, hopefully in the next book T'Ryssa Chen gets to take a phaser to the back of the head. I very much enjoyed the middle section and it was nice to see more of a universe outside of Starfleet.

As for "Is he Data or not?" question - that read to me to be set up for the next two books and a character arc.

[Tom Riker]

JoeZhang wrote:

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Picked this up on a whim - pretty good and I cheered as the offensively bland Choudhury bit the dust, hopefully in the next book T'Ryssa Chen gets to take a phaser to the back of the head. I very much enjoyed the middle section and it was nice to see more of a universe outside of Starfleet.

As for "Is he Data or not?" question - that read to me to be set up for the next two books and a character arc.

A Phaser would be too quick for "EVERYBODY'S FAVORITE QUIRKY VULCAN." She should have gone with Choudury and her hippee peace loving ways on the away team.

[Christopher]

^Hindu, not hippie. It's the third-largest religion in the world, with close to a billion adherents.

And I don't see what's so "hippie" about Choudhury making avoidance of violence her top priority. That's simply a realistic portrayal of how security and law-enforcement personnel should operate. Security is better served by avoiding conflict than engaging it, which is why cops, hostage negotiators, etc. try to talk suspects down as their first preference rather than just going in guns blazing. ST has historically been too quick to portray security personnel as soldiers and cannon fodder, but my view is that they should be more like cops, responsible for keeping the peace and avoiding conflict if at all possible. The best way to keep the crew safe is to keep weapons from being fired at all. Choudhury was never averse to using force when it was necessary, but she was skilled at finding alternative resolutions that kept it from becoming necessary. Which realistically should be the first resort of any security chief. After all, no chief would want to risk his or her security guards' lives unnecessarily, let alone the lives of the others they're there to protect. So avoiding a firefight is always going to be the preferable course, foremost in the mind of any security chief. But Trek has done a really crappy job of showing that in the past.

[FatherRob]

My review is now up at my new website: http://trekbook.blogspot.com/2012/11...of-memory.html

The review will probably also go up on TrekMovie at some point...

Rob+

[JD]

JoeZhang wrote:

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Picked this up on a whim - pretty good and I cheered as the offensively bland Choudhury bit the dust, hopefully in the next book T'Ryssa Chen gets to take a phaser to the back of the head. I very much enjoyed the middle section and it was nice to see more of a universe outside of Starfleet.

As for "Is he Data or not?" question - that read to me to be set up for the next two books and a character arc.

Only for her to come back before the end of the book so we don't lose any more TNG characters.

[Stoek]

I'm somewhere in the neighborhood of half done. I wanted to take a moment to thank David Mack for putting the whole "emotions" thing in proper perspective. Ages ago when I was watching The Most Toys and I heard the palpable sorrow in Data's voice as he made the very logical decision to use lethal force against Kivas Fajo the man who had kidnapped him and murdered the woman who was helping him to escape, I came to the realization that Data did indeed have emotions. But they were android emotions and therefore of a sort that while not completely dissimilar from the emotions of organic beings, were not identical. It pleased me no end to have my intuitive understanding so perfectly enunciated by Mr. Mack through the person of Noonien Soong.

[rafterman1701]

Loved the book. I thought the resurrection was well done and much better than what you see in Countdown, which was just an obvious and lazy way to undo the sacrifice. I felt Soong's criticism of the sacrifice was a bit meta, which was cool. Data is not human and the movie clearly left a resurrection method for his return. It just never got a sequel. This was a great way to handle things. And it's not a reset since the outcome of the story isn't a return to the previous status quo at all.