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Old October 31 2012, 08:41 PM   #91
AggieJohn
Lieutenant
 
Location: Houston Tx
Re: Power of the Federation

MacLeod wrote: View Post
DSN couldn't have been a watered down nuBSG given that it came out before.

Sure there were some misses in DSN, but DSN had a far greater hit to miss ration than many of the other Trek shows.

Many will argue when DSN is compared against the other Trek shows it was great.
I meant in hindsight with the DS9 NuBSG comparison. Actually Moore worked on both shows and indicated that he felt hindered in DS9 and was able to do the more gritter things in BSG.

Hey, don't read to much into my DS9 criticism MacLeod. I actually agree with you, compared to other TNG shows, it ranks at or near the top. All I am saying its these are the things that held it back from being epic. I pick only because I loved it so. It had the chance to be great, but for the aforementioned reasons it was "solid".
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Old October 31 2012, 09:21 PM   #92
MacLeod
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Re: Power of the Federation

It's always hard to compare shows from different eras. Perhaps DSN pushed it as far as it thought it could get away with. Fast forward a decade later and because previous shows pushed the boundry a new show tries to push the boundry a little more.
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Old October 31 2012, 09:36 PM   #93
AggieJohn
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Re: Power of the Federation

MacLeod wrote: View Post
It's always hard to compare shows from different eras. Perhaps DSN pushed it as far as it thought it could get away with. Fast forward a decade later and because previous shows pushed the boundry a new show tries to push the boundry a little more.
I can see that. I also think its because its Star Trek. Because Star Wars and Gundam came out in the 70's and both were able to do war much more dramatically. In some ways I fear that the issue was that the writers were too TNG which was a peaceful non-violent exploration show. Writing for war was out of their area. One sees the same issues when they attempted to do the Ent world, which was supposed to be gritter too.
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Old October 31 2012, 11:49 PM   #94
KamenRiderBlade
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Re: Power of the Federation

AggieJohn wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
It's always hard to compare shows from different eras. Perhaps DSN pushed it as far as it thought it could get away with. Fast forward a decade later and because previous shows pushed the boundry a new show tries to push the boundry a little more.
I can see that. I also think its because its Star Trek. Because Star Wars and Gundam came out in the 70's and both were able to do war much more dramatically. In some ways I fear that the issue was that the writers were too TNG which was a peaceful non-violent exploration show. Writing for war was out of their area. One sees the same issues when they attempted to do the Ent world, which was supposed to be gritter too.
I liked the Xindi arc from ENT. However it did feel like a lite version of a season of "24" which Manny Coto worked on for several seasons. The problem with the way they handled the 3rd season of ENT was there was too many diversions from the main arc. There was no need for a Cowboy episode, there was no need for Archer to be transformed into a primitive alien ape like being. They could've spent more time covering both sides of the Xindi war and the intricacies that come along with it.

Star Wars is more Science Fantasy Action Adventure than war drama IMO. As far as Gundam, they're a full blown war drama using humanoid robots as a focus. They've had 30+ years to refine their formula and explore different territory. It's completely different with Star Trek since they didn't have experience dealing with a war drama arc until DS9.

Considering the fact that Berman didn't want to do it and kept meddling, I think the Dominion arc pushed the boundaries for Star Trek. That's why in ENT, we were able to even get a Xindi War.
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Old November 1 2012, 02:54 AM   #95
EmperorTiberius
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Re: Power of the Federation

Constant war can become very oppresive. That's why there is a need for a cowboy episode, or for a holodeck episode, some kind of diversion. It also shows that there are other things happening, not just war. It emmulates real life. There is probably also a good reason from production point of view to throw those episodes in. They make the war feel longer.
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Old November 2 2012, 01:36 AM   #96
AggieJohn
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Re: Power of the Federation

EmperorTiberius wrote: View Post
Constant war can become very oppresive. That's why there is a need for a cowboy episode, or for a holodeck episode, some kind of diversion. It also shows that there are other things happening, not just war. It emmulates real life. There is probably also a good reason from production point of view to throw those episodes in. They make the war feel longer.
See I have to disagree with yeah right there. Yes you need a little bit of humor to break up the drama, like C3PO and R2D2 did in Star Wars but the Holodeck episode just down right pauses the story and I have to admit it seems almost an insult to what is going on that while the Dominion and the Alliance was lock in battle, people are dying and the officers of DS9 are farting around with a stupid computer program. It consumes the entire command of the station during a time of war. It is as bad as Mary Todd have parties during the Civil War.

So there has to be a balance of light humor but not side tracking the story too much like Kamen was mentioning. Thought to the idea of the Xindi, i just did not like that story at all. I almost did not watch session 3. Its a prequel it needed to focus on the Romulans, Klingons and birth of the federation.
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Old November 2 2012, 04:03 AM   #97
KamenRiderBlade
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Re: Power of the Federation

AggieJohn wrote: View Post
EmperorTiberius wrote: View Post
Constant war can become very oppresive. That's why there is a need for a cowboy episode, or for a holodeck episode, some kind of diversion. It also shows that there are other things happening, not just war. It emmulates real life. There is probably also a good reason from production point of view to throw those episodes in. They make the war feel longer.
See I have to disagree with yeah right there. Yes you need a little bit of humor to break up the drama, like C3PO and R2D2 did in Star Wars but the Holodeck episode just down right pauses the story and I have to admit it seems almost an insult to what is going on that while the Dominion and the Alliance was lock in battle, people are dying and the officers of DS9 are farting around with a stupid computer program. It consumes the entire command of the station during a time of war. It is as bad as Mary Todd have parties during the Civil War.

So there has to be a balance of light humor but not side tracking the story too much like Kamen was mentioning. Thought to the idea of the Xindi, i just did not like that story at all. I almost did not watch session 3. Its a prequel it needed to focus on the Romulans, Klingons and birth of the federation.
It got to the Romulans, Klingons, and the birth of the Federation in Season 4.

That was pretty much the focus of Season 4.
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Old November 2 2012, 05:55 AM   #98
The Grim Ghost
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Re: Power of the Federation

AggieJohn wrote: View Post
EmperorTiberius wrote: View Post
Constant war can become very oppresive. That's why there is a need for a cowboy episode, or for a holodeck episode, some kind of diversion. It also shows that there are other things happening, not just war. It emmulates real life. There is probably also a good reason from production point of view to throw those episodes in. They make the war feel longer.
See I have to disagree with yeah right there. Yes you need a little bit of humor to break up the drama, like C3PO and R2D2 did in Star Wars but the Holodeck episode just down right pauses the story and I have to admit it seems almost an insult to what is going on that while the Dominion and the Alliance was lock in battle, people are dying and the officers of DS9 are farting around with a stupid computer program. It consumes the entire command of the station during a time of war. It is as bad as Mary Todd have parties during the Civil War.

So there has to be a balance of light humor but not side tracking the story too much like Kamen was mentioning. Thought to the idea of the Xindi, i just did not like that story at all. I almost did not watch session 3. Its a prequel it needed to focus on the Romulans, Klingons and birth of the federation.
But people do still laugh, have parties, have babies, play games, etc... during wars. There is always some down time between battles and people need a way to let off steam in their own way.
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Old November 2 2012, 05:19 PM   #99
AggieJohn
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Location: Houston Tx
Re: Power of the Federation

The Grim Ghost wrote: View Post
AggieJohn wrote: View Post
EmperorTiberius wrote: View Post
Constant war can become very oppresive. That's why there is a need for a cowboy episode, or for a holodeck episode, some kind of diversion. It also shows that there are other things happening, not just war. It emmulates real life. There is probably also a good reason from production point of view to throw those episodes in. They make the war feel longer.
See I have to disagree with yeah right there. Yes you need a little bit of humor to break up the drama, like C3PO and R2D2 did in Star Wars but the Holodeck episode just down right pauses the story and I have to admit it seems almost an insult to what is going on that while the Dominion and the Alliance was lock in battle, people are dying and the officers of DS9 are farting around with a stupid computer program. It consumes the entire command of the station during a time of war. It is as bad as Mary Todd have parties during the Civil War.

So there has to be a balance of light humor but not side tracking the story too much like Kamen was mentioning. Thought to the idea of the Xindi, i just did not like that story at all. I almost did not watch session 3. Its a prequel it needed to focus on the Romulans, Klingons and birth of the federation.
But people do still laugh, have parties, have babies, play games, etc... during wars. There is always some down time between battles and people need a way to let off steam in their own way.
Well with all do respect, that is true but not the entire command of a front line battle station. A little steam being blown off, I completely agree. A drink at the pub sure but that? Sisko and his officers are the spear tip of the Federation's war effort and its not like they were on leave or anything. They neglected their responsibilities to save a holo-program? How many people died during that little event. Its in bad taste and considering they had already explore how apathy was wrong with the whole "evil has to be apposed episode" it seems to contradict itself.
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