RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,111
Posts: 5,400,348
Members: 24,744
Currently online: 493
Newest member: Ohwowmelody

TrekToday headlines

Trek Merchandise Sale
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek #39 Villain Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Trek Big Bang Figures
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Retro Watches
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

New DS9 eBook To Debut
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25

Trek Ice Cube Maker and Shot Glasses
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 31 2012, 06:47 PM   #16
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: What did Lucas do?

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
Rothschild wrote: View Post
Samurai8472 wrote: View Post

And also neutering the fearsomeness of Darth Vader to a whiny teen
I enjoyed the progression of Vader from a "whiny teen" to what we saw in the OT. Would it have been better to have Anakin just waiting to turn to Vader? Adds more depth to the character and the OT IMO.
No, it would have added more depth if he was actually likeable first. The fall of Vader was supposed to be a tragedy, which it isn't if you don't like him in the first place. It's more like, "Fine, good riddance."

Plus it kind of undercuts his redemption in ROTJ. The natural reaction is, "So what if he came back to the side of good? HE'S STILL A JERK!"
Seems we're in the same exact page regarding Anakin.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2012, 06:50 PM   #17
Temis the Vorta
Fleet Admiral
 
Temis the Vorta's Avatar
 
Location: Tatoinne
Re: What did Lucas do?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Rothschild wrote: View Post

I enjoyed the progression of Vader from a "whiny teen" to what we saw in the OT. Would it have been better to have Anakin just waiting to turn to Vader? Adds more depth to the character and the OT IMO.
By making Anakin whiny, no one actually cared about his path to becoming Vader. There was no moment where we felt for the characters downfall because we didn't care about the character.
Yeah, there's so many things wrong with the prequels, it's hard to know where to start, and we've been over it so many times before, it's hard to get motivated to start listing them all, but Anakin's characterization is the single worst thing, and even if that had been the only problem, it would have been enough to sink the prequels on its own,

A story starts with the main character and the audience's interest lies in having some sympathy for that character. The guy could be a gangster or a serial killer, but as long as the writer give us some "in" to liking the charatcer in some way, we're along for the ride.

But Lucas gave Anakin no likable qualities at all, or even qualities we could respect. He wasn't smart, he wasn't strong, he wasn't noble, he wasn't even a cool, powerful, villian. He was contemptable, which is far worse than merely being evil.

Contrast him with the Emporer, who everyone seems to like as a character. Why? He's not a weakling, that's why! Lucas picked the one ironclad way to sabotage his main character. After that, there was no salvaging the story.

If you want to see what Lucas ahould have done instead, watch The Clone Wars.
Temis the Vorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2012, 06:59 PM   #18
Temis the Vorta
Fleet Admiral
 
Temis the Vorta's Avatar
 
Location: Tatoinne
Re: What did Lucas do?

What sabotaged the prequels in a larger sense is that Lucas had no adult supervision since he was not working for a public corporation with shareholders and a board of directors to answer to, who could have kicked butt if substandard movies were made that underperformed.

The prequels did well, but in this era of mega-hits, they probably could have done much better if they had had competent storylines and a character who had some quality that made the audience interested in his saga.

The most damning evidence in the box office is that Phantom Menace did the best out of all three. It got the benefit of pent-up demand and squandered it. The other two shold have built on that lead, especially ROTS, the big finale with the epic battle everyone's been waiting 30 years to see. But by then, too much of the audience had been alienated.

It may sound strange to be happy that the bean counters are taking over, but even the most cold-blooded corporate hacks wouldn't permit the kind of total ineptitude that characterized the prequels. For starters, the scripts seemed like first drafts, and somebody should have demanded a rewrite to whip them into even a craftsmanlike level of competence, nevermind brilliance.

Disney's going to at least shoot for the level of the Marvel movies. Not all of them have been equally good, Iron Man 2 for instance, but that quality would be a vast improvement over the prequels. And churning movies out every few years shouldn't be an issue if its not an issue for all the other action-fantasy franchises.
Temis the Vorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2012, 07:00 PM   #19
Mister Fandango
Fleet Captain
 
Mister Fandango's Avatar
 
Re: What did Lucas do?

Rothschild wrote: View Post
I never expected any "haughty" science fiction from these movies. They are what they are. Some people just like their original popcorn flicks from the modern popcorn flicks.
Watching embarrassingly dumb portrayals of governments in action, listening to old guys spew out incredibly asinine philosophies, enduring "political intrigue" as understood by an 8-year-old, and watching mostly good to decent actors intentionally directed into wooden planks does not make for a popcorn movie.

But hey, the scenery was pretty, so all is forgiven.
Mister Fandango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2012, 07:07 PM   #20
davejames
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Sac, Ca
Re: What did Lucas do?

1. He made every character stiff and boring as hell.

2. He wrote the most stilted dialogue imagineable.

3. He made Anakin an annoying, whiny, unlikeable dick.

4. He completely left out any of the wonderful charm and spirit of the OT.
davejames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2012, 07:07 PM   #21
Temis the Vorta
Fleet Admiral
 
Temis the Vorta's Avatar
 
Location: Tatoinne
Re: What did Lucas do?

And let's not forget the dialogue! A competent director would NEVER have let shit like this happen. Literally nothing about this scene works, except as unintentional comedy. (Or intentional, courtesy of rifftrax).
Temis the Vorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2012, 07:08 PM   #22
Silvercrest
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Lost in Moria (Arlington, WA, USA)
Re: What did Lucas do?

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
Watching embarrassingly dumb portrayals of governments in action, listening to old guys spew out incredibly asinine philosophies, enduring "political intrigue" as understood by an 8-year-old, and watching mostly good to decent actors intentionally directed into wooden planks does not make for a popcorn movie.
When you put it that way, it sounds like real life!
Silvercrest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2012, 07:08 PM   #23
chardman
Vice Admiral
 
chardman's Avatar
 
Location: The home of GenCon
View chardman's Twitter Profile
Re: What did Lucas do?

One of the biggest problem with the prequels, as far as I'm concerned, isn't just Christensen's wooden performance as Anikin, but specifically the fact that he and Portman's Amidala had absolutely no chemistry between them whatsoever. I didn't "buy" them as a couple. Not even for a second. Hell, even Jake Lloyd had better chemistry with Portman in Ep 1 than Christensen did in Eps 2 & 3, albeit in an obnoxious little brother sort of way, but at least their relationship seemed vaguely plausible.
__________________
If Ronald Reagan hadn't cut Mental Health funding to the bone, most of today's GOP & Tea Party candidates wouldn't be walking around loose.
chardman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2012, 07:14 PM   #24
Silvercrest
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Lost in Moria (Arlington, WA, USA)
Re: What did Lucas do?

Temis the Friendly Ghost wrote: View Post
But Lucas gave Anakin no likable qualities at all, or even qualities we could respect. He wasn't smart, he wasn't strong, he wasn't noble, he wasn't even a cool, powerful, villian. He was contemptable, which is far worse than merely being evil.
You know, I just had this sudden image of the character of Anakin being swapped with the character of Frank Burns. And the spooky thing is I think the PT would have played out exactly the same.
Silvercrest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2012, 07:25 PM   #25
Temis the Vorta
Fleet Admiral
 
Temis the Vorta's Avatar
 
Location: Tatoinne
Re: What did Lucas do?

Weird thing is, there was something likeable at the core of Frank Burns. Somehow he tapped into a sympathy-for-the-underdog vein. Maybe because Hawkeye et al seemed like the cool kids and Burns was he dweeby outsider.

So maybe if the Jedi have been portrayed as insufferably arrogant, we wold have liked Anakin more. There was certainly a lot of surface evidence of arrogance, but the prequels didn't really follow up that possibility. Lucas never allowed the Jedi to be portrayed in a bad light like that.

And that leads me to another problem - the clones! If the Jedi are supposed to be so good and holy, why are they breeding cannon fodder? They should have shut down the clone factory as soon as they discovered it, as an obvious crime against humanity and all the other species-anity.

If conversely they were faring so badly in the war that they were forced to use cannon fodder, then what does that say for a Republic who can't get its own citizens to fight for it?
Temis the Vorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2012, 07:57 PM   #26
davejames
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Sac, Ca
Re: What did Lucas do?

Temis the Friendly Ghost wrote: View Post
And that leads me to another problem - the clones! If the Jedi are supposed to be so good and holy, why are they breeding cannon fodder? They should have shut down the clone factory as soon as they discovered it, as an obvious crime against humanity and all the other species-anity.
Good point, hadn't thought of that.

Although frankly I never cared for ANY part of the clone story, or the "twist" of having them start out as the good guys. It just seemed contrived as hell to me.

And really? The clones in the infamous "Clone Wars" are nothing but some earlier versions of the bumbling stormtroopers from the OT??

Lucas had the opportunity to create a whole new, cool kind of threat for the Jedis to go up against in these movies, but instead he just made them.... a bunch of stormtroopers. Ugh.
davejames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2012, 08:15 PM   #27
Galileo7
Fleet Captain
 
Galileo7's Avatar
 
Location: U.S.A.
Re: What did Lucas do?

Hound of UIster wrote: View Post
Essentially he choose to direct all three prequels and did a terrible job at it.
Agree. Sad, but true.
Galileo7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2012, 08:18 PM   #28
Klaus
Rear Admiral
 
Klaus's Avatar
 
Location: Beach condo, Bay of Eldamar
View Klaus's Twitter Profile
Re: What did Lucas do?

Hound of UIster wrote: View Post
Essentially he choose to direct all three prequels and did a terrible job at it.
That's it right there...
__________________
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain
t-shirts!
deviantArt
Klaus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2012, 08:22 PM   #29
Admiral Buzzkill
Fleet Admiral
 
Re: What did Lucas do?

What did he do?

He did what he wanted to do with something that belonged to him and made huge piles of money from a world of people anxious to pay to watch him do it.
Admiral Buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2012, 08:31 PM   #30
Stone_Cold_Sisko
Vice Admiral
 
Re: What did Lucas do?

He made a really badly executed trilogy (or as I call it, "Arrivals and Departures" since it feels like almost every scene in the movie is people walking down hallways, departing, and arriving, or having meetings about departing or arriving)... in a series that a lot of fans had childhood attachments to.
Stone_Cold_Sisko is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:38 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.