The characters and universe post-TOS

[T'Girl]

Timo wrote:

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All we really saw change was the Enterprise.

During the entirety of TOS, the Enterprise and her sister connies might have been hopelessly obsolete by general Starfleet standards. The refit instead of advancing the Enterprise's technology by eight some years instead could have brought the Enterprise forwards twenty plus years in technology.

The Enterprise we saw in WNMHGB might have been one step away from a gunnery target.

[TREK_GOD_1]

Timo wrote:

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For all we know, Starfleet HQ had looked like that for the past twenty years or so, and it just so happened that the hero ship in TOS was ten years behind the times, and the hero ship in TMP was built (and decorated) to be ten years ahead of them.

I doubt that; during the TOS, it would be safe to say the "connies" were each at different points of their 5-year missions (no one ever said they were all launched at the same time), so ships could return to the shipyards, or spacedock whenever necessary for technological improvements. We do not know how much in-series time passed between "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and "The Corbomite Manuver," but the ship did recieve many exterior and interior changes after that 2nd pilot. Then, the Enterprise had its engineering section remodeled after the events of season 1--no small undertaking--so its not as though the ship was a floating dinosaur so far out that the rest of of Starfleet tech passed it by to reach TMP levels while the Enterprise was away.

I think Enterprise was always recieving updates as required (or demanded), but by the end of Kirk's 5-year mission, Starfleet was getting around to changes to the "connie's" entire structure--which would not be addressed in a mere two years.

On the other hand, "hard" onscreen facts include Voyager 6 being more than three centuries old. That pushes TMP to 2278 at least, considering Voyagers 1 and 2 date back to 1977, and forces an eight-year gap between TOS and the movie.

There you have it. ST has always married itself to real world events, so your information serves as a fixed period of time between TV and film, and 8 years is certainly a more believable amount of time to justify the lead character's physical changes than what would be a shocking two years after TOS.

[BillJ]

TREK_GOD_1 wrote:

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There you have it. ST has always married itself to real world events, so your information serves as a fixed period of time between TV and film, and 8 years is certainly a more believable amount of time to justify the lead character's physical changes than what would be a shocking two years after TOS.

Not really.

We had no orbiting nuclear weapons platform in 1968, no Eugenics War and I doubt we see a manned trip to Saturn in my lifetime. So it's just as easy to say that in the Trek universe, the Voyager probes followed a different timeline.

It's all up to how an individual wants to interpret it.

[Timo]

during the TOS, it would be safe to say the "connies" were each at different points of their 5-year missions (no one ever said they were all launched at the same time), so ships could return to the shipyards, or spacedock whenever necessary for technological improvements.

Kirk's ship was refitted at Earth; perhaps that was the only place capable of anything of the magnitude? Significantly, none of the TOS ships was ever indicated to have been to the 23rd century Earth either during the adventures or even at any previous timepoint (not even in connection with adventures involving Earth such as "Tomorrow is Yesterday" or "City on the Edge of Forever"). Obsolescence might have plagued the entire frontier fleet as a phenomenon.

Then, the Enterprise had its engineering section remodeled after the events of season 1

Or we just started seeing a different set of rooms and angles out of the maze-like, at least fifty-room whole.

Timo Saloniemi

[TREK_GOD_1]

Timo wrote:

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Kirk's ship was refitted at Earth; perhaps that was the only place capable of anything of the magnitude? Significantly, none of the TOS ships was ever indicated to have been to the 23rd century Earth either during the adventures or even at any previous timepoint (not even in connection with adventures involving Earth such as "Tomorrow is Yesterday" or "City on the Edge of Forever"). Obsolescence might have plagued the entire frontier fleet as a phenomenon.

Why would they fail to visit earth at any point during their 5-year missions? In fact, the time travel mission in "Assignment: Earth" required the Enterprise to be in that system in order to use the "light speed breakaway" effect to travel to the earth of 1968.

After the Gary Seven busniess concludes and Enterprise returns to the 23rd century, there's no reason to think the ship simply warped out to some other location without any number of reasons to orbit or simply be in the general area (for shore leave, Starfleet business, reporting Seven's alien influenced presense--or even tech upgrades).

Or we just started seeing a different set of rooms and angles out of the maze-like, at least fifty-room whole.

Timo Saloniemi

The series never lays out the section's entire deck plan. All we ever see is the main engineering room where Scotty conducted most of his business. We were to assume the same room seen in season one was modified to its two-story configuration in season two, since we never see the 1st season version again.

[Timo]

Why would they fail to visit earth at any point during their 5-year missions?

Any number of reasons could be invented (tight schedule for a mission performed so far away from Earth that there simply isn't time for such visits, say), as the storylines do allow us to assume that Earth is never visited, and this further allows us to believe the ships are way behind the times when it comes to fashion.

In fact, the time travel mission in "Assignment: Earth" required the Enterprise to be in that system in order to use the "light speed breakaway" effect to travel to the earth of 1968.

Debatable - in "Tomorrow is Yesterday", this was achieved at a wholly different star system (the one with the "black star"). And neither episode made mention of the ship being in any contact with the 23rd century version of the planet, even though we can of course assume the heroes would have wanted a pit stop in "TiY" and would have done a debriefing and a quick visit home after "A:E".

All we ever see is the main engineering room where Scotty conducted most of his business.

And even that is a bit to the small side for such a big ship. Quite possibly we might be dealing with something like two or four such side-by-side rooms of near-identical looks, plus the never-seen, brewery-sized remainder of the facilities. Certainly the ship offers the necessary internal volume for choosing the "multiple rooms" interpretation over the "changed rooms" one.

Timo Saloniemi

[newtontomato539]

I do prefer the First Five year mission ending with Where No Man, The Second Five year mission starting with The Corbomite Man and ending with Counter Clock, The Third Five year mission starting and ending with the comics and novels, The Fourth Five year mission starting with TMP and ending with the comics and novels.

I am using what is in the show and the movies.

It's true, any story set during the Fourth five year mission is usually better in the comics than the novels. I'm trying to remember any of the novels that are good. . . Off the top of my head, 'Time for Yesterday' and 'The Romulan Way'.

Then there is the Kobyashi Alternative game set during the fourth five year mission and the Starfleet Academy set during the fifth.

I don't like would happened in TFF and TUC. Most of them should have been transfered to the Excelsior. Shake things up.

[BillJ]

newtontomato539 wrote:

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I don't like would happened in TFF and TUC. Most of them should have been transfered to the Excelsior. Shake things up.

Not sure how transferring them from one ship to another shakes things up?

[Timo]

I do prefer the First Five year mission...

Except Kirk in ST:TMP seems to be saying that even one five-year mission is a big deal that makes him uniquely qualified to deal with V'Ger.

Quite possibly there never was another five-year mission in the history of Starfleet, much less in the history of the Enterprise. At least such things are never referred to in the aired episodes and movies, and the very concept of an X-year mission really only exists in the opening credits of TOS. For all we know, the opening credits speech is something Kirk dictated for his memoirs, decades after the mission, with the unique knowledge that the mission would involve him for five years; all starships would have missions of indeterminate length, and Kirk calling this one a five-yearer is just marketing for the memoirs.

Timo Saloniemi

[AggieJohn]

KeepOnTrekking wrote:

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That's why Saavik can't look Spock in the eyes at the end and looks down instead! Maybe a little Romulan shame from applying the Vulcan principle of "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one?" Saavik saved Spock's life at the cost of her own shame while doing so? (But, yes, I agree the pon farr thing is hard to explain if Spock was Saavik's father.)

I would love to see this as her back story. The relationship between the Romulan Commander and Spock would nicely parallel Kirk-Carl-David story. Especially since we never meet Dr. Marcus in the TOS.

AS far as the Pon Farr aspect of STIII, that was just odd no matter how you slice it. I mean Spock was aging like a year an hour or something, shouldn't he have passed through the whole stage too quickly to have even felt the effects?

[Timo]

He did seem to be aging in stages, just like the planet. It's too bad that one of the stages coincided with his pon farr...

The novels maintain a continuity of sorts on Saavik's backstory, making her the adoptive rather than biological "daughter" of Spock. Whether Vulcans would feel shame for banging adopted family members is completely unknown; it's hardly a constant for humans, either.

Timo Saloniemi

[TREK_GOD_1]

Timo wrote:

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Quite possibly there never was another five-year mission in the history of Starfleet, much less in the history of the Enterprise. At least such things are never referred to in the aired episodes and movies, and the very concept of an X-year mission really only exists in the opening credits of TOS.

Well, in The Menagerie, Part I, Spock reveals how long he served with Pike--which was far longer than 5 years. Whether his stated number was simply adding up a number of five-year missions, or missions were extended in Pike's active years is unknown, but Spock's line could suggest Starfleet vessels did not all follow the 5-year period of service.

[T'Girl]

TREK_GOD_1 wrote:

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Well, in The Menagerie, Part I, Spock reveals how long he served with Pike--which was far longer than 5 years.

But how much of that time was aboard the same ship? As Pike commanded different ships, Spock went with him from assignment to assignment.

[AggieJohn]

Timo wrote:

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He did seem to be aging in stages, just like the planet. It's too bad that one of the stages coincided with his pon farr...

The novels maintain a continuity of sorts on Saavik's backstory, making her the adoptive rather than biological "daughter" of Spock. Whether Vulcans would feel shame for banging adopted family members is completely unknown; it's hardly a constant for humans, either.

Timo Saloniemi

Very true. One also has to consider, and I think this was already pointed out, that in Amok Time Spock had hoped to avoid the Pon Farr all together due to his human side. It did delay it till he was in his 30's. The whole scene is creepy and kills the momentum of the story, like the dark cave in Empire Strikes Back, but instead of fighting himself, a student has sex with a mentor who is himself a teenage boy. Its so bad that Saavik is never seen again in movies short of a tiny bit in STIV. Its like hey Saavik want a ride back to earth, oooohhh noooo I will take the next BoP, good luck at your court marshal. I could be their as a character witness regarding your brave actions on Genesis planet but, nooooo .

[TREK_GOD_1]

T'Girl wrote:

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But how much of that time was aboard the same ship? As Pike commanded different ships, Spock went with him from assignment to assignment.

On screen, all we know is that Pike only commanded the Enterprise, and Spock served with him, so this suggests the ship had an extended mission beyond the more familiar 5 years of Kirk's era.