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Old October 26 2012, 01:25 PM   #31
Hando
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Re: Why do the Klingons have equal technology to the Federation

Christopher wrote: View Post
The issue isn't about our assumptions, but the Klingons' assumptions. As stated in the first post, "Suspicions" seemed to indicate that the Klingons themselves hold scientists in low esteem; and as I pointed out, "Judgment" pretty much said outright that pretty much all non-warrior classes in the empire have come to be marginalized and given less respect than the warriors. So it's not about whether we think warriors can be inventive; it's about whether the Klingons as a culture respect engineers and scientists. And there seems to be evidence that they don't, at least not during the points in their history that we've seen depicted onscreen.
While it is true, doesn't it just show that the warriors dislike "all" non-warriors/for "civilians".

Isn't it likely that if Kurak were to do a stint in the military and then pursue science, she would had better experience.

I think it just shows a warrior-first attitude. Something along the lines that a soldier in the USA would approve more of a DARPA scientist than of a researcher at a university.

What do you think?

Last edited by Hando; October 26 2012 at 06:55 PM.
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Old October 26 2012, 01:44 PM   #32
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Re: Why do the Klingons have equal technology to the Federation

Hando wrote: View Post
While it is true, doesn't it just show that the warriors dislike "all" non-warriors/for "civilians".
But the key is, in a society where the warrior class rules and its values are the ones that shape the nation's policies, that dislike is not "just" dislike, but a determining factor in how science and technology are treated in society as a whole. Heck, just look at the current US Congress and you'll see that if the people in power have a negative attitude toward science and innovation, it can have a seriously harmful impact on scientific progress in a nation, due to a lack of funding and support for scientific institutions and education and the promotion of laws and policies based on scientifically illegitimate beliefs.
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Old October 26 2012, 07:49 PM   #33
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Re: Why do the Klingons have equal technology to the Federation

Christopher wrote: View Post
But the key is, in a society where the warrior class rules and its values are the ones that shape the nation's policies, that dislike is not "just" dislike, but a determining factor in how science and technology are treated in society as a whole. Heck, just look at the current US Congress and you'll see that if the people in power have a negative attitude toward science and innovation, it can have a seriously harmful impact on scientific progress in a nation, due to a lack of funding and support for scientific institutions and education and the promotion of laws and policies based on scientifically illegitimate beliefs.
I just wanted to point out that the warriors don't have to be against innovation. Just against innovation coming from the "outside". That they would rather have the innovation/research come from the warrior class.

And it doesn't have to be as much as disdain, or dislike, just that they saw themselves as more important than everybody else.

I would like to use a real-life, so I will go with the cliche of Klingons being a cross between Japanese and Norse.
And in Japan it did work that way, after-all the samurai did depend on the craftsmen and sword-smiths and still consider themselves to be on a higher social level.

I may be going in circles here, but .

Hm, I wonder how the rise of the warrior class in the 22nd century was connected with the last emperor and the rise of the houses in 21st century.
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Old October 28 2012, 11:00 AM   #34
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Re: Why do the Klingons have equal technology to the Federation

Hando wrote: View Post
I would like to use a real-life, so I will go with the cliche of Klingons being a cross between Japanese and Norse.
And in Japan it did work that way, after-all the samurai did depend on the craftsmen and sword-smiths and still consider themselves to be on a higher social level.
Both the japanese and the vikings WERE scientifically/technologically and economically stagnant. And, for the vast majority of the population, life in these societies was brutish and short.
That's what you get when your craftsmen, sword-smiths, etc - pretty much 99% of your citizens - are second-class citizens, living in poverty.
Tell me - do you know what was the punishment for a samurai killing a peasant/craftsman/sword-smith, just because he felt like it/got a kick out of it?

That's what you get, generally, when you have an oligarchy whose main jobs are to squeeze the rest of society for all the wealth and to secure its future prominence (waging wars, largely for 'macho' reasons, in the process). For proof, look at most human societies that existed.

That's an accurate description of the klingon society - as shown on screen. That the klingon empire kept up with the federation, for centuries, in terms of wealth and technology, is a poetic license - you just have to suspend disbelief and accept it; in actuality, it's just as realistic as the transporter.

I may be going in circles here, but .
Christopher's analysis is correct. You're trying to refute it with arguments he already proved unconvincing. Of course, that doesn't stop you from repeating them.

So - yes, you are going in circles.
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Old October 28 2012, 03:46 PM   #35
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Re: Why do the Klingons have equal technology to the Federation

Christopher wrote: View Post
The issue isn't about our assumptions, but the Klingons' assumptions. As stated in the first post, "Suspicions" seemed to indicate that the Klingons themselves hold scientists in low esteem; and as I pointed out, "Judgment" pretty much said outright that pretty much all non-warrior classes in the empire have come to be marginalized and given less respect than the warriors. So it's not about whether we think warriors can be inventive; it's about whether the Klingons as a culture respect engineers and scientists. And there seems to be evidence that they don't, at least not during the points in their history that we've seen depicted onscreen.
Maybe Kurak just had a bad attitude and saw prejudice where none existed?
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Old October 29 2012, 11:00 AM   #36
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Re: Why do the Klingons have equal technology to the Federation

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Hando wrote: View Post
I would like to use a real-life, so I will go with the cliche of Klingons being a cross between Japanese and Norse.
And in Japan it did work that way, after-all the samurai did depend on the craftsmen and sword-smiths and still consider themselves to be on a higher social level.
Both the japanese and the vikings WERE scientifically/technologically and economically stagnant. And, for the vast majority of the population, life in these societies was brutish and short.
That's what you get when your craftsmen, sword-smiths, etc - pretty much 99% of your citizens - are second-class citizens, living in poverty.
Tell me - do you know what was the punishment for a samurai killing a peasant/craftsman/sword-smith, just because he felt like it/got a kick out of it?

That's what you get, generally, when you have an oligarchy whose main jobs are to squeeze the rest of society for all the wealth and to secure its future prominence (waging wars, largely for 'macho' reasons, in the process). For proof, look at most human societies that existed.

That's an accurate description of the klingon society - as shown on screen. That the klingon empire kept up with the federation, for centuries, in terms of wealth and technology, is a poetic license - you just have to suspend disbelief and accept it; in actuality, it's just as realistic as the transporter.

I may be going in circles here, but .
Christopher's analysis is correct. You're trying to refute it with arguments he already proved unconvincing. Of course, that doesn't stop you from repeating them.

So - yes, you are going in circles.
Please, if all could be answered with a wizard did it, poetic licence, it's only fiction than there would be no need for any discussion.

I agree with Christopher, but answers have to be found.
And so far the only disagreement was wit my failed attempts to provide flawed examples from HUMAN history. I see picking on my examples rather than the actual idea.

So, I will attempt to make the final example and then I will shut up.
What about this: Klingons = USSR
The country is ruled by communists (warriors). All progress is ascribed to communists (warriors) ...

As was said the non-warrior classes were marginalized, that does not mean that their function in the society was marginalized too. Just that most of them were/will be taken over by the warriors.

Would this explain Mara, Chang, Col. Worf, possibly even Kurak post-Dominon War?

PS: I don't know about the Norse, but the Japanese were stagnant only because it was forced upon them from the up. If the isolation was not implemented they would have been more progressive, and they still were pretty innovative in some areas.
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Old October 29 2012, 06:38 PM   #37
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Re: Why do the Klingons have equal technology to the Federation

I am just not completely convinced that the Klingons are purely a Norse/Japanese Samurai culture. It does appear that way in Enterprise and the TNG but not the case in the TOS. This leaves me with the view that there are cycles in the Empire in which a more USSR reasonable and pragmatic approach/attitude towards science and engineering was taken.

We may have even seen the ill effects of a conservative warrior culture taking its tool on the empire where in they seems dominated by petty rivalries and the consumption of blood wine.

One got the impression the Klingons like Worf might represent a counter cultural movement back towards an appreciation of science and reason while maintaining an respect for the cultural past.
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Old October 29 2012, 07:01 PM   #38
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Re: Why do the Klingons have equal technology to the Federation

AggieJohn wrote: View Post
I am just not completely convinced that the Klingons are purely a Norse/Japanese Samurai culture. It does appear that way in Enterprise and the TNG but not the case in the TOS.
Oh, definitely. It wasn't until TNG that the writers began using Norse and samurai models for writing the Klingons. The TOS Klingons were a cross between space Mongols in appearance and behavior and space Soviets from a political standpoint -- or rather, the '60s American TV stereotypes of Mongols and Soviets.
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Old October 29 2012, 07:07 PM   #39
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Re: Why do the Klingons have equal technology to the Federation

The Klingon Empire is clearly multi-racial as evidenced the numerous alien races present on Rura Penthe. For these subject races I imagine non-combat related professions are quite viable.

There may exist a galatic arms market which the Klingons also utilitize. How else did those moronic mercenaries in Gambit get such a good ship?

Also the Soviet/Klingon paralells are appropriate. In the early 1980's the U.S.S.R. spent something like 15% of GDP on their military.

The Federation is more advanced but spends almost nothing on defense so I don't have a problem with the closeness of the two powers as depicted.
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Old October 29 2012, 07:37 PM   #40
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Re: Why do the Klingons have equal technology to the Federation

How about this:

Some pure blood Klingons are allowed to pursue non-military careers if they so choose or if they are too weak/cowardly to cut it as a warrior. They aren't sick and weak enough to be put to death, but they are pathetic Klingons that can only find work as nannies, cooks, etc...

Some Klingons choose to also diversify into other fields IN ADDITION to military service, such as Kang's wife.

Meanwhile, the majority of the menial non-military professions are left to the conquered species. These pathetic losers are not even allowed to leave their home planet or even board a ship with Warp drive. They are allowed to continue to exist solely to provide the Empire with much needed non-military infrastructure.
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Old October 29 2012, 07:47 PM   #41
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Re: Why do the Klingons have equal technology to the Federation

The overall average level of galatic technology has also progressed.

Clearly civillian cargo ships travel faster during TNG times than during Enterprise.

The Klingons may just use the galatic standard in a more pronounced military fashion.

Cassidy Yates and Kivas Fajo had slow ships but that might be from economic considerations. Anti-matter and warp coils still have high costs for money using civilians.
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Old October 29 2012, 07:53 PM   #42
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Re: Why do the Klingons have equal technology to the Federation

Xerxes1979 wrote: View Post
The Klingon Empire is clearly multi-racial as evidenced the numerous alien races present on Rura Pentha. For these subject races I imagine non-combat related professions are quite viable.
If only Klingon imperial subjects are imprisoned on Rura Penthe, then when did the Klingons conquer Earth?

The inmates of Rura Penthe were criminals in the view of the Klingons, and were tried and convicted by a Klingon court, but that doesn't mean all the inmates represent Klingon subjects.

There may exist a galatic arms market which the Klingons also utilitize. How else did those moronic mercenaries in Gambit get such a good ship?
Would the Klingons then only be buying the same models year after year, century after century? And if they're buying their ships, who is making them?

The Federation is more advanced but spends almost nothing on defense so I don't have a problem with the closeness of the two powers as depicted.
How do we know the Federation spends "almost nothing" on defense? There are always too few starships it seems, with one usually arriving just in the nick of time, but what does that tell us about their defense budget?
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Old October 29 2012, 07:58 PM   #43
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Re: Why do the Klingons have equal technology to the Federation

Kirk surrendered to the Klingons and put himself at the mercy of the sham Klingon justice system. I haven't seen that Archer in jail episode but I suspect it was a similar frame up.

Do you think the Klingons care so much about justice that they seek out individuals well outside Klingon space?

The obvious explaination is that Klingon space is pourous to trade or is made up of subject spieces and criminals from that group end up on Rura Penthe.
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Old October 29 2012, 08:16 PM   #44
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Re: Why do the Klingons have equal technology to the Federation

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Do you think the Klingons care so much about justice that they seek out individuals well outside Klingon space?
No, I think they find plenty of criminals within their own space, some of whom are just passing through their space. How many Klingon subject races have we heard about? I recall only the Kriosians. I do think the Klingons care about their brand of justice, though. They just think death is a fitting sentence for more crimes than the UFP does.

The obvious explaination is that Klingon space is pourous to trade or is made up of subject spieces and criminals from that group end up on Rura Penthe.
Agreed, except that I don't know which species at Rura Penthe were from conquered worlds and which were not, nor the proportion of each.
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Old October 29 2012, 09:16 PM   #45
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Re: Why do the Klingons have equal technology to the Federation

I'm sure the Klingon prison population includes everyone who commits crimes in what they consider their territory. But as a rule, criminals are more likely to commit crimes closer to home, simply as a matter of access and opportunity. Therefore it's logical to conclude that the majority of those who commit crimes within Klingon territory are residents of Klingon territory. So while some Rura Penthe inmates would be from outside the Empire, it's reasonable to conclude that the majority of species we saw at Rura Penthe are subject races.
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