The characters and universe post-TOS

[J.T.B.]

Grant wrote:

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A squadron implies they are a straight up miltiary force and not exploritory vessels anymore.

Regardless of what it implies, it was established in "The Ultimate Computer".

That's just not Trek. A bunch of ships together in force wouldn't help dramatic storytelling.

TNG and DS9 did it fairly dramatically.

Justin

[T'Girl]

sbk1234 wrote:

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I like that, too. I agree that it seems a bit contrived that the core group stayed together all those years in the same jobs

Not everyone would have needed to be aboard the ship the whole time, Chapel left to become a MD, and then came back. There is conjecture that Chekov left to attend a security school, then returned.

Rand disappeared during TOS itself, returning as a transporter tech, wasn't aboard the ship during TWoK, later she was aboard the Excelsior. Uhura could have been posted to another ship for years. Scotty was there for the year and a half rebuild, but the in-between time?

Both Spock and McCoy left Starfleet altogether. Spock return because of V'ger (and would have joined Decker's crew for the mission). McCoy was pulled back in by Kirk.

I think that originally Sulu was Decker's first officer, either that or Kirk sent that individual into the bowels of the ship, or left them on Earth. Either way someone there got screwed.

How many really stayed with the ship after TMP?

Kirk was off the ship again , and maybe McCoy with him. He (and McCoy?) were aboard for the inspection cruise.

Chekov left again at some point to become the first officer of the Reliant, he wasn't officially reassigned to the Enteprise until the end of TVH.

Sulu, from his own comments, wasn't a part of the Enterprise's regular company during TWoK, he was there temporarily. He rejoined the ship at the end of TVH, and for TFF. He then became Captain of the Excelsior.

Transporter Chief Kyle never returned to the Enterprise after TOS. We saw him briefly (iirc) aboard the Reliant, hopefully he wasn't killed.

Chapel left the ship (after TWoK?) to be next seen working at Starfleet HQ.

So, the core group doesn't seem to have been continuously assigned to the ship.

[Hartzilla2007]

T'Girl wrote:

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My personal preference is that after fairly brief refit, command of the Enterprise was turned over to Will Decker and he took her out again. Years and many missions later, Decker brought the Enterprise back to Earth (by this time Kirk is already CoSO) and the rebuild process began.

Except Scotty believed that Decker was untried, which wouldn't be the case if he had already commanded the ship for a lengthy period of time unless it was a very boring mission where nothing really happened.

[BillJ]

Hartzilla2007 wrote:

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Except Scotty believed that Decker was untried, which wouldn't be the case if he had already commanded the ship for a lengthy period of time unless it was a very boring mission where nothing really happened.

This.

I think as much as seven or eight years could've passed between the series and TMP. McCoy may have retired but Kirk and Spock could've went onto other duties within Starfleet. Kirk serving as a Starbase commander and Spock and Scott doing work with Starfleet R&D on all the technological discoveries found during the Enterprise's five-year mission. That work may have lead to the Enterprise we see in TMP. Sulu likely served on another vessel as second officer, Chekov went back to school then served on smaller craft for a time and Uhura worked with Starfleet Intelligence.

The Enterprise was likely handed to another crew after the end of the series and the beginning of her refit prior to TMP. Heck, you could almost fit a second five-year mission in there.

[T'Girl]

BillJ wrote:

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but Kirk and Spock could've went onto other duties within Starfleet

Spock left Starfleet at some point previous to the movie, McCoy said " ... apparently for good."

Roddenberry's novel said Spock was on Vulcan for 2.8 seasons (however long that is) and that he left basically immediately after the Enterprise returned to Earth after the five year mission. So, Spock either resigned his commission, or he went into the reserves.

[BillJ]

T'Girl wrote:

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Spock left Starfleet at some point previous to the movie, McCoy said " ... apparently for good."

Roddenberry's novel said Spock was on Vulcan for 2.8 seasons (however long that is) and that he left basically immediately after the Enterprise returned to Earth after the five year mission. So, Spock either resigned his commission, or he went into the reserves.

Theoretically, Spock could've continued working with Starfleet in a civilian capacity. But we're not really stuck following the novel and nothing in the film precludes Spock continuing to work after the end of the five-year mission.

[JRoss]

KeepOnTrekking wrote:

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I never cared for the backstory of Saavik as an orphan on Hellgaard. Personally, I liked the idea of her being the daughter of Spock and the Romulan Commander from "Enterprise Incident." The way the Commander spun around in her chair when Kirk and Spock first met her is remarkably similar to how we are introduced to Saavik in STII as she spins around in the Captain's chair. Like mother, like daughter maybe in habits? Kirstie Alley said that she always practiced being like Spock and wanting to play his daughter but playing Saavik was the next best thing. Maybe closer than she thought? I like that idea.

Ever seen Search for Spock? Think about why that is a bad idea.

[1001001]

JRoss wrote:

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Ever seen Search for Spock? Think about why that is a bad idea.

[KeepOnTrekking]

1001001 wrote:

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That's why Saavik can't look Spock in the eyes at the end and looks down instead! Maybe a little Romulan shame from applying the Vulcan principle of "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one?" Saavik saved Spock's life at the cost of her own shame while doing so? (But, yes, I agree the pon farr thing is hard to explain if Spock was Saavik's father.)

[T'Girl]

JRoss wrote:

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Ever seen Search for Spock? Think about why that is a bad idea.

Vulcans may have no cultural prohibition against incest, like those illogical Human do.

I like the idea that Saavik is "only" Spock protege, and that he may have been the one who gave her a recommendation for admissions to Starfleet academy.

[TREK_GOD_1]

[QUOTE=T'Girl;7137025]

KingDaniel wrote:

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Problem is in canon we don't exactly know when the TOS five year mission took place, which years. That part is loose conjecture.

Between the time the Enterprise returned to Earth and the events of TMP, up to a decade easily could have passed.

Even if the 5-year mission ended in 2270 (by the way, in my personal continuity, TAS was the 5th year in '70), there's no writing on or off screen to explain the physical changes of the characters (actors) from "Turnabout Intruder" to TMP. As in real life, we witnessed the actors grow older throughout the 1970s, on par with the near decade of time between TV and film production, so the only rational explanation cannot have less than six, maybe seven years of time passing to sell the characters' physical appearance.

Still I think canon must be forced into accepting a ten year gap between TV and TMP, as Kirk sets a fixed date in TWOK, when he tells Carol he had not seen Khan in fifteen years, which--considering the real life 1967 airdate of "Space Seed" to the 1982 release date of TWOK--is exactly fifteen years. There's not much phyisical difference between the actors from TMP to TWOK (aside from Doohan gaining a few extra pounds), so we have to assume TMP occured only a few years earlier---probably three.

If that's the case, then any published dates of TMP occuring a mere 2 years after TOS cannot be taken seriously.

[BillJ]

TREK_GOD_1 wrote:

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Still I think canon must be forced into accepting a ten year gap between TV and TMP, as Kirk sets a fixed date in TWOK, when he tells Carol he had not seen Khan in fifteen years, which--considering the real life 1967 airdate of "Space Seed" to the 1982 release date of TWOK--is exactly fifteen years. There's not much phyisical difference between the actors from TMP to TWOK (aside from Doohan gaining a few extra pounds), so we have to assume TMP occured only a few years earlier---probably three.

If that's the case, then any published dates of TMP occuring a mere 2 years after TOS cannot be taken seriously.

I think a shorter gap between TMP and TWOK makes sense. It doesn't require Kirk to be repromoted to Admiral and the Enterprise could have never returned to frontline service. Merely being a testbed vehicle for new technologies and then being demoted to training-ship status.

The theory of a longer gap between TOS and TMP has grown on me over the years. Also, if there's a seven to ten year gap between the two, it makes it easier to explain the radical changes we see in TMP.

[King Daniel Into Darkness]

TREK_GOD_1 wrote:

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Even if the 5-year mission ended in 2270 (by the way, in my personal continuity, TAS was the 5th year in '70), there's no writing on or off screen to explain the physical changes of the characters (actors) from "Turnabout Intruder" to TMP. As in real life, we witnessed the actors grow older throughout the 1970s, on par with the near decade of time between TV and film production, so the only rational explanation cannot have less than six, maybe seven years of time passing to sell the characters' physical appearance.

Do the actors' physical changes need explaining at all? There is no real justification for the complete change in visual aesthetic between TOS and the movies either, except to say the producers changed and updated how Star Trek looks. An Enterprise refit doesn't cover the complete change in the Klingons, for example. Or that not a single computer console, keyboard layout or screen readout in any way resembles those seen in TOS.

Still I think canon must be forced into accepting a ten year gap between TV and TMP, as Kirk sets a fixed date in TWOK, when he tells Carol he had not seen Khan in fifteen years, which--considering the real life 1967 airdate of "Space Seed" to the 1982 release date of TWOK--is exactly fifteen years. There's not much phyisical difference between the actors from TMP to TWOK (aside from Doohan gaining a few extra pounds), so we have to assume TMP occured only a few years earlier---probably three.

If that's the case, then any published dates of TMP occuring a mere 2 years after TOS cannot be taken seriously.

But in TMP, everyone's active and it ends with them warping off to new adventures (the apocraphyl second 5-year mission - after all, TMP began life as the pilot episode for Star Trek Phase II). Then, in TWOK, the crew are split and those remaining are in the twilight of their careers, training the next generation of Starfleet. They only reunite on the Enterprise for "a little training cruise"

Back in the old Best of Trek books, there were fans who believed TWOK deliberately ignored TMP, and others that felt the movies were incompatible.

[TREK_GOD_1]

KingDaniel wrote:

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Do the actors' physical changes need explaining at all? There is no real justification for the complete change in visual aesthetic between TOS and the movies either, except to say the producers changed and updated how Star Trek looks. An Enterprise refit doesn't cover the complete change in the Klingons, for example. Or that not a single computer console, keyboard layout or screen readout in any way resembles those seen in TOS.

...the very reason the only sensible explanation is a ten year gap; in that time, actor/lead characters' physical appearance and technological changes can be easily explained (for example, think of car design in 1959, then jump to 1969, or rocketry in 1947, then think of the advances in use by 1958). Major changes happened in real 20th century decades of growth, so it should not be an impossible feat at all in the fictional late 23rd century.

On top of that, audiences simply cannot forget what is seen in front of their faces, which is why fans in '78 (one year before TMP release) assumed the film was as removed from the series in the same amount of years as real life. The actor and design changes would be plausible in a stretch of ten years.

The Klingon issue is another matter--one so going against a natural explanation of evolution (and at the the time, no one thought of the retconning created decades later in "Trials and Tribble-ations") that it stands as the one issue that cannot be easily explained away. That is, if Roddenberry, et al, did not think of simply saying the species was hit with some form of radiation--even genetic experimentation were responsible for the physical changes. That would have been the easy put-away for the Klingon issue.

But in TMP, everyone's active and it ends with them warping off to new adventures (the apocraphyl second 5-year mission - after all, TMP began life as the pilot episode for Star Trek Phase II). Then, in TWOK, the crew are split and those remaining are in the twilight of their careers, training the next generation of Starfleet. They only reunite on the Enterprise for "a little training cruise"

Back in the old Best of Trek books, there were fans who believed TWOK deliberately ignored TMP, and others that felt the movies were incompatible.

That was their choice, but it was not on screen. At the end of TMP, with Kirk's "thataway" line, I feel that was more for the audience (a "we will be back, fans" tease) than any official, hammered in stone notice of Kirk and company all reassigned to the Enterprise for another 5-year mission. It is not said, and V'Ger was the only reason they were together again.

There's no official post-TMP 5 year mission, so i'm assuming the Enterprise returned to spacedock to complete its renovation, or perhaps it was destined to be what it was in TWOK: a training vessel. After all, one film later in TSFS (same period of time), the Enterprise is considered too old, and is destined for mothballs, which means both details (training ship and its age) probably means it was not used as an exploration ship post TMP.

[Timo]

In terms of "hard" onscreen facts, there's no particular reason to think that the entire universe underwent a significant change between TOS and TMP. All we really saw change was the Enterprise. And naturally a near-total modernization (from the technological angle) would invite the total total modernization (for sheer aesthetics, or PR purposes, whatever you call it) of insignificant details from intercom buttons to onboard cutlery - there would be no reason to leave something like that unchanged when the very point is to introduce a new thing.

For all we know, Starfleet HQ had looked like that for the past twenty years or so, and it just so happened that the hero ship in TOS was ten years behind the times, and the hero ship in TMP was built (and decorated) to be ten years ahead of them.

On the other hand, "hard" onscreen facts include Voyager 6 being more than three centuries old. That pushes TMP to 2278 at least, considering Voyagers 1 and 2 date back to 1977, and forces an eight-year gap between TOS and the movie. Unless we assume the Voyager program of Star Trek was different from the real one in some details.

Timo Saloniemi