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Old October 24 2012, 10:28 PM   #31
Worf'sParmach
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

callea wrote: View Post
Odo not having the disease is a continuity error. Since it's said later that he got the disease from Section 31 during season 4, you're right that he should have gotten sick. You could explain it away by saying that something on that planet cured Odo of the disease. Like the writers, I guess no one at DS9 remembered that particular detail and so they never thought to attempt to look for a cure on that planet.
Here's what I don't get about this argument... Children of time aired during season 5. The changeling disease was not mentioned until season 7 (maybe the end of 6 at the earliest but I don't think so). So perhaps the writers just hadn't made up the whole changeling disease when Children of Time was written, ergo there is no way ' Gaia Odo' could have had it. Yes, if this was all real Gaia Odo should have been sick or even dead from the disease. But saying he got it during S4 was just a retcon by the writers anyway which created a plot hole that didn't exist when COT was written.

I think sometimes we forget that this is just a TV show, after all
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Old October 24 2012, 11:04 PM   #32
Pavonis
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

So you don't think that the Founders changing Odo into a permanent solid could have rid him of the disease vector that S31 infected him with? That somehow it stayed in the human Odo despite him not being a changeling?

Going out of the universe to explain the "discrepancy" is not even necessary in this case.
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Old October 24 2012, 11:43 PM   #33
Tiberius
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

Worf'sParmach wrote: View Post
callea wrote: View Post
Odo not having the disease is a continuity error. Since it's said later that he got the disease from Section 31 during season 4, you're right that he should have gotten sick. You could explain it away by saying that something on that planet cured Odo of the disease. Like the writers, I guess no one at DS9 remembered that particular detail and so they never thought to attempt to look for a cure on that planet.
Here's what I don't get about this argument... Children of time aired during season 5. The changeling disease was not mentioned until season 7 (maybe the end of 6 at the earliest but I don't think so). So perhaps the writers just hadn't made up the whole changeling disease when Children of Time was written, ergo there is no way ' Gaia Odo' could have had it. Yes, if this was all real Gaia Odo should have been sick or even dead from the disease. But saying he got it during S4 was just a retcon by the writers anyway which created a plot hole that didn't exist when COT was written.

I think sometimes we forget that this is just a TV show, after all
I don't get this. Why would gaia Odo have the disease?

From his point of view the timeline went like this...
  • Went to earth in Homefront and Paradise Lost, infected with the disease.
  • Linked with female shapeshifter, infected rest of Great Link.
  • Punsihed and made solid. Odo cured of changling disease.
  • Baby changling absorbs into Odo, restoring his shapeshifting abilities. Odo now shapeshifter with no disease.
  • Odo stuck on Gaia, learns to shapeshift better.

Why would he end up dying from the disease on Gaia?
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Old October 26 2012, 10:35 AM   #34
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

Ti-BOO!-rius wrote: View Post
I don't get this. Why would gaia Odo have the disease?

From his point of view the timeline went like this...
  • Went to earth in Homefront and Paradise Lost, infected with the disease.
  • Linked with female shapeshifter, infected rest of Great Link.
  • Punsihed and made solid. Odo cured of changling disease.
  • Baby changling absorbs into Odo, restoring his shapeshifting abilities. Odo now shapeshifter with no disease.
  • Odo stuck on Gaia, learns to shapeshift better.

Why would he end up dying from the disease on Gaia?
I see a much simpler explanation... Section 31 engineered this disease such that Odo would be a "carrier" but not show symptoms... The disease would have been structured in such a way that Odo's morphogenic matrix was immune.

So he infects the great link, but since different changelings have different matrices (like DNA, let's say), they became infected.

But they made him human. No more morphogenic matrix, no more disease.

Then Odo encounters the baby changeling he purchased from Quark (and this must definitely be one of "The Hundred").

Baby regloopifies Odo, resulting in a ... *drumroll* new and different morphogenic matrix, still uninfected.

Then, Children of Time. No sickness (aside from love sickness, guffaw).

Then, Dominion Occupation arc... Odo gets the disease from Princess Evil, and is no longer immune because the disease is only engineered to provide immunity to Odo's *original* morphogenic matrix.

And they all lived happily ever after.
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Old October 26 2012, 11:44 AM   #35
Tiberius
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

chrinFinity wrote: View Post
I see a much simpler explanation... Section 31 engineered this disease such that Odo would be a "carrier" but not show symptoms... The disease would have been structured in such a way that Odo's morphogenic matrix was immune.

So he infects the great link, but since different changelings have different matrices (like DNA, let's say), they became infected.

But they made him human. No more morphogenic matrix, no more disease.

Then Odo encounters the baby changeling he purchased from Quark (and this must definitely be one of "The Hundred").

Baby regloopifies Odo, resulting in a ... *drumroll* new and different morphogenic matrix, still uninfected.

Then, Children of Time. No sickness (aside from love sickness, guffaw).

Then, Dominion Occupation arc... Odo gets the disease from Princess Evil, and is no longer immune because the disease is only engineered to provide immunity to Odo's *original* morphogenic matrix.

And they all lived happily ever after.
But why would they care if Odo gets infected or not?

And your idea of the different changelings having different morphogenic matrices is a nice idea, but in-universe it would contradict the female founder's claim that there is one Founder, and many, depending on how you look at it. If they had unique matrices, then there would be discreet individuals, and the drop would not be able to become the ocean.

So I think the evidence from the show indicates that as neat as your idea is, it's not correct.
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Old October 26 2012, 12:14 PM   #36
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

I tend not to think about it. A lot of People like "Children of Time" but I'm not one of them. It never did anything for me except for detract from characterizations of the main cast that is normally pro-active. For the first three acts of this story, they are, instead, just listening to shit they can't change, must accept, and must learn to cope with. I never liked this episode.
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Old October 28 2012, 06:05 PM   #37
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

Maybe present-day Odo simply doesn't WANT to closely imitate a 'solid' face? He probably just likes the way he looks now. Even if future Odo gave him the ability, he doesn't have to actually want to use it.
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Old October 29 2012, 09:34 AM   #38
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

Supposedly, Odo would have learned lots of new things about being a Changeling in "The Search" already. Either this sort of education just plain won't lead to immediate improvement in skills no matter how hard Odo tries, or then Odo sees no point in change. "Children of Time" would not have represented that big a turning point either way.

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Old November 1 2012, 11:32 AM   #39
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

Ti-BOO!-rius wrote: View Post
But why would they care if Odo gets infected or not?

And your idea of the different changelings having different morphogenic matrices is a nice idea, but in-universe it would contradict the female founder's claim that there is one Founder, and many, depending on how you look at it. If they had unique matrices, then there would be discreet individuals, and the drop would not be able to become the ocean.

So I think the evidence from the show indicates that as neat as your idea is, it's not correct.
No conflict required - let's say the matrix is redefined every time two or more changelings "link" together. Pretty snazzily fits with the "ocean becomes the drop" concept.

It would also mean that Odo would be succeptible to the disease at any point after linking, but Sec 31 wouldn't care about that, as if he'd already visited the Great Link and delivered the virus, Section 31 would no longer have any interest in maintaining Odo's health to cover up his carrying of the virus.

Hmm? Hmm?

But as a side note, I think you may be taking the Female Changeling's statement about the ocean and the drop a little too literally... While Changelings can intermingle unlike solids, I don't think they ever lose their sense of identity (as, for example, the Borg do) and they're clearly not a hive mind. Also, my sense is that if some number of changelings, say, 26, were to enter into a link orgy, the same 26 would come out again after. You wouldn't get 25, or 27. I also believe the population of the Great Link is comprised of a fixed number of individuals at any given time, even if they are all in liquid form together on the same planet, they could still be constituted out into the same individuals afterward.
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Old November 1 2012, 12:44 PM   #40
Timo
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

I don't think they ever lose their sense of identity (as, for example, the Borg do) and they're clearly not a hive mind.
How could we tell? The Link never spits out two distinct individuals, unless one of them is Odo. All we ever see is a generic Changeling, regardless of whether it takes the shape of Female Changeling, Admiral Leyton, Chief O'Brien or a seagull. There is no known variation in personality or identity. Except for Odo and the other independently operating youngster Laas.

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Old November 2 2012, 12:48 AM   #41
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

Timo wrote: View Post
I don't think they ever lose their sense of identity (as, for example, the Borg do) and they're clearly not a hive mind.
How could we tell? The Link never spits out two distinct individuals, unless one of them is Odo. All we ever see is a generic Changeling, regardless of whether it takes the shape of Female Changeling, Admiral Leyton, Chief O'Brien or a seagull. There is no known variation in personality or identity. Except for Odo and the other independently operating youngster Laas.
True, but the Great Link has consistently been spoken of as a collection of individual entities by the Female changeling, even saying to Odo in "Broken Link" that there was great disagreement as to what to do with him.
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Old November 2 2012, 01:32 PM   #42
Pavonis
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

A single entity can be said to be of "two minds" on a subject.

The languages of solids may not be adequately equipped to convey the reality of the Great Link - "individuals", "minds", "communication" may all be approximations of the reality of what is going on when changelings link.
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Old November 3 2012, 09:36 AM   #43
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

Timo wrote: View Post
I don't think they ever lose their sense of identity (as, for example, the Borg do) and they're clearly not a hive mind.
How could we tell? The Link never spits out two distinct individuals, unless one of them is Odo. All we ever see is a generic Changeling, regardless of whether it takes the shape of Female Changeling, Admiral Leyton, Chief O'Brien or a seagull. There is no known variation in personality or identity. Except for Odo and the other independently operating youngster Laas.

Timo Saloniemi
Well, I know the literature isn't canon, but I've always had an interpretation of the Great Link which matches how they were later portrayed in the novels.

Even in the show, Odo and the Female Changeling have both come and gone from the Great Link many times, and they always remained independent entities.
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Old November 18 2012, 06:52 PM   #44
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

Sisko, you make an interesting point. The Changelings need to have photographic memory with all 5 senses to shapeshift accurately. So it follows that the older Odo must have an incredibly detailed, step-by-step memory of how to shift into various forms. That would include his human face. Since the primary form of communication between Changelings is linking, it also follows that that's how they teach their young to shapeshift. That would explain why all the other Changelings are better at it than Odo, who never received proper instruction. His style is more clever improvisation than systematic knowledge. That's why the other Changelings have assumed forms that never even occurred to him. Given that the older Odo has a perfect memory and that Changelings teach by linking, it follows that older Odo should have taught younger Odo more about shapeshifting.

That being said, one of the best things about DS9 was Odo's slow, awkward adolescence. Learning to appear human would be too great a leap forward, and would have deprived the character of that great sense of being isolated from the others.
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Old November 18 2012, 07:03 PM   #45
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

Also, the real plot hole in Children of Time is the way they erased the civilization from the planet. They never actually had a choice, because if they were interracting with the descendants, then they already did go back in time and create the civilization.

Look at the sequence of events. They meet an older Odo, he sabotages the ship and prevents them from going back, that Odo was never created, so he didn't sabotage the ship, so they hit the barrier and went back in time...

Star Trek XI had the same plot-hole. If Nero went back in time and blew up Vulcan, then by his time there was no Vulcan to go back and blow up. So he never went back. So he never destroyed Vulcan. So there was something to blow up. So he went back and blew it up. Its a paradox that keeps negating itself.

That's not at all the same as what happened in Trek IV, where they went back in time to bring a solution to the future, not prevent the problem from ever existing. You can alter history with time travel but you can't remove your original reason for travelling back.
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