Who should have been killed in Nemesis? (Not Stuart Baird please)

[Jon1701]

Well, as shown in the film - Data tranfers all his memories into McCoy (*cough*), I mean B4 so you could argue he doesn't really die.

[Utopianvista]

Spock.

Then we wouldn't have got the disaster of NuTrek.

[los2188]

Zombie Redshirt wrote:

---

The flaw with Nemesis wasn't who they killed it's how hallow and meaninglessly it was done. A character death can be a VERY dramatic plot element if done properly. If done improperly, it's just an afterthought.

So just to piggyback on what you said, which I agree with, Data makes the ultimate sacrifice that I'd like to think is a very human thing to do for a friend or member of a family, so do you think that him making the ultimate sacrifice was not a good idea, or just improperly done. If it's improperly done, I'd love to know how you would have improved upon that... The Tucker thing in Enterprise was so bad, that I don't remember why or how that happened...but the 3rd and 4th season T'Pol sure is nice to look at...

[R. Star]

los2188 wrote:

---

So just to piggyback on what you said, which I agree with, Data makes the ultimate sacrifice that I'd like to think is a very human thing to do for a friend or member of a family, so do you think that him making the ultimate sacrifice was not a good idea, or just improperly done. If it's improperly done, I'd love to know how you would have improved upon that... The Tucker thing in Enterprise was so bad, that I don't remember why or how that happened...but the 3rd and 4th season T'Pol sure is nice to look at...

I have no doubt Data would willingly sacrifice himself for a member of the crew. Heck his willingness to do so for active antagonists has been established as early as Deja Q when he damaged himself and nearly died saving Q's human form.

So obviously we're going with improperly done. Let's establish what happened. Picard decides he's a senior badass and beams over to the Scimitar to stop Shinzon's super weapon. Conveniently the transporters are shot and can only beam him over and not back. Too bad they didn't have any shuttles hmm?

So Picard gets over there and starts killing Remans by the dozens video game style. The he gets into the classic hand to hand battle with the villain. There's no stopping superhero Picard, except his arthritis makes him drop his weapons occasionally. He beats the bad guy, impales him on a giant spear and yep. Shinzon spouts off a dumb line and that just causes Picard to suddenly become wrought with emotion for killing poor little Mini Me.

Yep, Picard's so overcome with grief over that he just doesn't think about all his friends over on the Enterprise dying. Too bad. Well Data does his silly physics defying space jump. Even he forgets they have shuttles too. Anyways, Data comes in to save the day. He puts his transporter tag thing on Picard and it beams him back.

Now this makes zero sense for a couple of reasons too. A transporter tag, at least in the last movie, made a transporter lock possible in otherwise impossible circumstances. It stops interference. But it still requires the transporter on the other end to be working. Now it's just magic. It works. Or maybe the transporter tag thing is just smarter than our heroes and taps into the shuttles transporters if the main ones aren't working?

Number two... why doesn't Data just grab Picard as he transports him away? There are any number of examples of this throughout Trek as early as STIV when Gillian grabs Kirk when he's beaming up. Power doesn't seem to be an issue, the transporter just grabs everything in a given three dimensional area and beams it up. Like the floating blood in STVI. Oh wait, how would Data blow up the doomsday core? Well bombs work... but even since he didn't think of this, there are multiple examples of both Federation and Romulan hand weapons being set to "overload" on a 30 second or so timer. Data had his phaser. Even if the transporter tag doesn't work to get Data back for whatever reason he can set it on overload and run back out to that hatch and jump back into space.

So yeah, Data sacrificing himself was pretty much meaningless due to sloppy writing. I think it makes more sense that Data just couldn't take anymore of these movie scripts and offed himself.

[los2188]

Zombie Redshirt wrote:

---

I have no doubt Data would willingly sacrifice himself for a member of the crew. Heck his willingness to do so for active antagonists has been established as early as Deja Q when he damaged himself and nearly died saving Q's human form.

So obviously we're going with improperly done. Let's establish what happened. Picard decides he's a senior badass and beams over to the Scimitar to stop Shinzon's super weapon. Conveniently the transporters are shot and can only beam him over and not back. Too bad they didn't have any shuttles hmm?

So Picard gets over there and starts killing Remans by the dozens video game style. The he gets into the classic hand to hand battle with the villain. There's no stopping superhero Picard, except his arthritis makes him drop his weapons occasionally. He beats the bad guy, impales him on a giant spear and yep. Shinzon spouts off a dumb line and that just causes Picard to suddenly become wrought with emotion for killing poor little Mini Me.

Yep, Picard's so overcome with grief over that he just doesn't think about all his friends over on the Enterprise dying. Too bad. Well Data does his silly physics defying space jump. Even he forgets they have shuttles too. Anyways, Data comes in to save the day. He puts his transporter tag thing on Picard and it beams him back.

Now this makes zero sense for a couple of reasons too. A transporter tag, at least in the last movie, made a transporter lock possible in otherwise impossible circumstances. It stops interference. But it still requires the transporter on the other end to be working. Now it's just magic. It works. Or maybe the transporter tag thing is just smarter than our heroes and taps into the shuttles transporters if the main ones aren't working?

Number two... why doesn't Data just grab Picard as he transports him away? There are any number of examples of this throughout Trek as early as STIV when Gillian grabs Kirk when he's beaming up. Power doesn't seem to be an issue, the transporter just grabs everything in a given three dimensional area and beams it up. Like the floating blood in STVI. Oh wait, how would Data blow up the doomsday core? Well bombs work... but even since he didn't think of this, there are multiple examples of both Federation and Romulan hand weapons being set to "overload" on a 30 second or so timer. Data had his phaser. Even if the transporter tag doesn't work to get Data back for whatever reason he can set it on overload and run back out to that hatch and jump back into space.

So yeah, Data sacrificing himself was pretty much meaningless due to sloppy writing. I think it makes more sense that Data just couldn't take anymore of these movie scripts and offed himself.

touché...you're spot on. Some of the points you brought up are some of the same things that I wondered...like the transporter. Why couldn't they just touch each other or whatever and transport out together. The shuttle pod point that you made brings up a lot of questions for me. Last time I checked, shuttles have transporters as well. One thing I've always wondered about, and this goes for all of Star Trek, couldn't the shuttle pods be used in battle? Using them to deploy weapons, or just use the weapons on them to help fight villains like the Borg. Why not amp-up, so to speak, the shuttles so that they can be used in battles and be formidable? Like the delta flyer on Voyager?

[Timo]

...he can set it on overload and run back out to that hatch and jump back into space.

Our heroes should remember that in "Datalore", they dumped a Soong android in space, but in "Brothers" he came back to bite them anyway. How could the heroes know that Data was destroyed in the explosion? Indeed, how could the audience?

To rationalize the transporter thing somewhat, what goes down in the puff of smoke is probably the targeting system vital for transporting. Let's say it's all the more vital for transporting through the interference of the Bassen Rift. No lesser system, such as that of the shuttlecraft, can work in the Rift (we know from "Best of Both Worlds" and "Future's End" that shuttle transporters are grossly inferior to starship ones). So a signal enhancer is needed to sort it all out, and the button is a modern, miniature enhancer.

That Data doesn't use the enhancer to beam back with Picard in the end is easily explained: he needs to finish the job, and expects to survive, thanks to being an android (up yours, thalaron dust!). That Data doesn't use the enhancer to beam back with Picard from Shinzon's lab earlier on... Cannot be explained.

Timo Saloniemi

[Vasquez Rocks]

Data says earlier in the movie that the transporter device is a prototype and only has enough power to transport one. As for the shuttlecraft transporters, the shuttlecrafts on the Scimitar were destroyed and damaged from the crashing of the two ships. Perhaps the same thing happened to the Enterprise's shuttlecrafts. Geordi does say that transporters are down. Probably meaning all transporters.

And the idea of of Data overloading his phaser or putting it on a timer wouldn't have really worked. The thaloran radiation was about to be fired at the Enterprise and there would have been no time for him to get back to the hatch he came in from. It was down to something like thirty seconds. Another one of those pesky countdown clocks which always seems to get in the way.

[MacLeod]

Nemesis has plenty of flaws, I seem to recall shuttles having independant transporter systems to name but one.

But back to the question at hand, I wouldn't say anybody had to die. The question to ask does the death serve the story? In terms of Nemesis I don't think it did.

[DarKush]

AllStarEntprise wrote:

---

Thematically it would've worked better had Picard been the one to die.

1. It would've worked better with the story they were going for. King Arthur meets his long lost son Mordred. In the story Mordred strikes down Arthur as Arthur pierces him with a lance. Displayed in how Picard ends Shinzon.

2. Also had Picard died then Riker would likely been promoted to captain of the Enterprise. The rest of the crew would've stayed together after that. Worf and Geordi never left the Ent-E, Troi now Riker's wife wouldn't leave for the Titan, Crusher may have stayed on to keep the family together and Data would be first officer.

3. Riker's destiny would be fufilled by becoming captain of the Enterprise. There mission would be working on relations with the Romulans just like at the end of NEM. Mirroring Undiscovered Country by making a long time enemy an ally.

I really like how you've laid this out. It makes a lot of sense and would've made for a much better film. I like the description of Shinzon as Mordred quite a bit. And the way he did die could be seen as Arthurian in retrospect.

[JRoss]

John Logan.

[teacake]

Riker.

LET'S KILL RIKER.

[T'Girl]

bbailey861 wrote:

---

Then, of course, as mentioned below, Riker could have been offered command.

I wonder how that would have worked out. In the timeline of the movie (as I understand it) Riker had already been offered and had accepted the command of the Titan before the beginning of the movie. Picard mentioned this in his wedding toast.

So, if subsequent to Picard death Starfleet had gone to Riker and gave him the option of the (presumably) more prestigious command of the Enterprise E, what would Riker do? Enterprise or Titan?

[billcosby]

Worf, Worf, Worf, a million times WORFS. That would have made him so happy!

[R. Star]

teacock wrote:

---

Riker.

LET'S KILL RIKER.

Yeah. The let's off that jerk.

One of my favorite moments in TNG for some odd reason is when Jellico fires Riker, cut to next scene with Data in red.

[Sindatur]

Zombie Redshirt wrote:

---

Yeah. The let's off that jerk.

One of my favorite moments in TNG for some odd reason is when Jellico fires Riker, cut to next scene with Data in red.

I was always disappointed and wondered why when Picard Ordered "Fire at Will", no one ever did (Except in Star Wreck'd)