Why do the Klingons have equal technology to the Federation

[Shawnster]

-Brett- wrote:

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Even if the Klingons reverse engineered the technology of another culture, that would still require a decent theoretical understanding of the principles involved.

They don't have to reverse engineer it, though. Conquered civilizations aren't always destroyed. "You will now teach us about this technology. You will build this technology for us." etc...

By the 24th Century the Klingons are also allies of the Federation. I'm sure trade agreements exist. Heck, the United States sends ships and planes to all kinds of other countries, even ones that aren't as favorable allies as others.

[AggieJohn]

Well we assume that Klingons have always been "all" about the warrior code. If you consider Medieval Europe and Feudal Japan embarrassed strict codes late in the period one might consider that now that the Klingons are well established they are more embracing of their traditions. They seemed much more pragmatic in the 23 century. Upon entering into a space building empire mode they may have strongly embraced a scientist class and even warriors were well educated preferring technology instead of focusing on hand to hand combat but with peace with the Federation you see a cultural shift to "get back" to their roots.

This may have even been in waves, there is a concept even in the US of the cultural pendulum wherein we embrace liberal and conservative views.

[EmperorTiberius]

Whether their warriror class respects other classes is not part of the equation. Others have to do what they can to make a living.

[Christopher]

Shawnster wrote:

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They don't have to reverse engineer it, though. Conquered civilizations aren't always destroyed. "You will now teach us about this technology. You will build this technology for us." etc...

Indeed, that's the whole point of empires as sociopolitical entities. An empire is what you get when one powerful state takes over multiple other societies and funnels their resources, wealth, personnel, etc. to the service of its own prosperity and efforts.

AggieJohn wrote:

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Well we assume that Klingons have always been "all" about the warrior code.

How are we assuming that? As I just said, we know for a canonical fact, thanks to ENT: "Judgment," that the dominance of the warrior caste began only in the early 22nd or late 21st century. In other words, if Qo'noS existed and we went there today, in 2012, we'd most likely find what Kolos described as "a great society... [where] honor was earned through integrity and acts of true courage, not senseless bloodshed." Probably still an aggressive society by our standards, but not so dominated by its military class and their values as it would be a century or two later.

They seemed much more pragmatic in the 23 century. Upon entering into a space building empire mode they may have strongly embraced a scientist class and even warriors were well educated preferring technology instead of focusing on hand to hand combat but with peace with the Federation you see a cultural shift to "get back" to their roots.

This may have even been in waves, there is a concept even in the US of the cultural pendulum wherein we embrace liberal and conservative views.

That could certainly be the case. Although the 2150s society Kolos condemns in "Judgment," where victory by any means is valued over integrity, does seem pretty similar to the treacherous Klingon mentality we glimpsed in the TOS era.

[Pavonis]

EmperorTiberius wrote:

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Whether their warriror class respects other classes is not part of the equation. Others have to do what they can to make a living.

I think it does matter. If Klingons believe being warriors is the only worthwhile endeavor, then how many Klingons will follow that path despite it not being where their talents lie? How many Klingons died in battle with supposedly inferior forces because those warrirors were really better suited to careers in science, engineering, law, or finance?

[T'Girl]

When the refuges were beamed from Kang's ship, in Day of the Dove, two separated themselves out to stand next to Kang. One was introduced as Kang's science officer. He was seen standing close to Kang in later scenes, so Kang had a science officer as part of his "inner circle."

[Anwar]

I thought his wife Mara was the science officer?

Anywho, I figured the Klingons got their original tech from the Hurq and it took them a while to understand it.

[EmperorTiberius]

Pavonis wrote:

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I think it does matter. If Klingons believe being warriors is the only worthwhile endeavor, then how many Klingons will follow that path despite it not being where their talents lie? How many Klingons died in battle with supposedly inferior forces because those warrirors were really better suited to careers in science, engineering, law, or finance?

You are born into a class. Can't move in or out of it. They appear to be much like Samurai, even down to prefering traditional weapons instead of firearms.

[Christopher]

Anwar wrote:

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I thought his wife Mara was the science officer?

Yes, Kang introduced Mara as his science officer. Mara was the only one who stayed in the transporter room with Kang when he delivered the introduction.

EmperorTiberius wrote:

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You are born into a class. Can't move in our out of it.

You're thinking of a caste. There are many cultures in which a social class can be moved into or out of -- the United States, for example (although many in the American upper class are trying to make it harder for others to move into it).

[Hando]

There must be more going on.
After all it seems like the Klingons are in the same research speed category as the Vulcans.
In the 14th century both the recovery of Vulcan and the Hur'q invasion of Qo'nos occurred. Jump to the 22nd century and their technological levels are not that far apart.
(Please note that the Hur'q invasion wasn't that positive as it left Qo'nos resource poor, so they may have built the Ch'gran fleet but afterwards they would have to find alternative means to do the same thing as the Hur'q technology did.)


It is only when humans enter the equation and show how slow everybody else is that problems arise.

I wonder did in the 23rd century in the Klingon Empire occur a similar transformation as in the Tokugawa shogunate? We have Colonel Worf, the head of a noble house, and General Chang, probably the second most powerful person in the Empire, "playing" lawyers.

Up to the 21st century (while there was an Emperor) I am not sure about the general scientific community in the Empire. But I would say that as the power of the houses rose the scientist worked rather for the houses than for the Empire as a whole. Something like Magisters in Europe during the Middle Ages.

As to why the Klingons can keep up with the UFP, there may be several reasons:
1.) espionage
2.) Klingon-Romulan Alliance and its effects - House of Duras and also other houses grew more powerful from their association with Romulans, they may have exchanged technology too
3.) the already stated conquering of worlds with the more advanced technology, or through xenoarcheology, or buying it
4.) no squandering: a Klingon ship needs only weapons, shields and basic sensors, warp drive ...; no need for gardens, holodecks, living quarters have only beds... on the other hand look at a Federation ship ...; if Starfleet used a more Klingon mindset and built a Sovereign-or-Galaxy-class-sized ship according to Defiant specifications we would see just how much the UFP is more advanced than the Klingon Empire (I am unsure if Yesterday's Enterprise supports or disproves this)

[AggieJohn]

Christopher wrote:

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Indeed, that's the whole point of empires as sociopolitical entities. An empire is what you get when one powerful state takes over multiple other societies and funnels their resources, wealth, personnel, etc. to the service of its own prosperity and efforts.

How are we assuming that? As I just said, we know for a canonical fact, thanks to ENT: "Judgment," that the dominance of the warrior caste began only in the early 22nd or late 21st century. In other words, if Qo'noS existed and we went there today, in 2012, we'd most likely find what Kolos described as "a great society... [where] honor was earned through integrity and acts of true courage, not senseless bloodshed." Probably still an aggressive society by our standards, but not so dominated by its military class and their values as it would be a century or two later.

That could certainly be the case. Although the 2150s society Kolos condemns in "Judgment," where victory by any means is valued over integrity, does seem pretty similar to the treacherous Klingon mentality we glimpsed in the TOS era.

Hence the "all" statement. It seems reasonable to assume that there is a strong "honor" aspect to the Klingon but like knights or Samurai there are periods where the code was less important than actually winning wherein they fled battle or did underhanded things to achieve victory. So the strong almost religious adherence to honor may come and go. There was a theme of the Klingon's losing their warrior way in the TNG. They even cloned Kahless to address this. That might not have been an isolated event wherein they often struggle with technology and the old ways. Again not that different from modern culture in the west or Japan.

Now on another note. Are we assuming that warriors can be great engineers? The vikings did amazing things with their ships and were great explorers. There was at times that strong sense of pride in the ship and knowing every inch of it amount various Klingons in the TNG and DS9.

[Christopher]

The issue isn't about our assumptions, but the Klingons' assumptions. As stated in the first post, "Suspicions" seemed to indicate that the Klingons themselves hold scientists in low esteem; and as I pointed out, "Judgment" pretty much said outright that pretty much all non-warrior classes in the empire have come to be marginalized and given less respect than the warriors. So it's not about whether we think warriors can be inventive; it's about whether the Klingons as a culture respect engineers and scientists. And there seems to be evidence that they don't, at least not during the points in their history that we've seen depicted onscreen.

[T'Girl]

Anwar wrote:

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I thought his wife Mara was the science officer?

Seem to have gotten that jumbled around. However the fact remains that Kang did have a science officer.

[Pavonis]

Yes, which means the Klingon scientists we've seen were both women. Mara, and Kurak in TNG's "Suspicions".

Maybe women dominate the non-combat related fields? The Cardassian society is set up that way.

[AggieJohn]

Christopher wrote:

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The issue isn't about our assumptions, but the Klingons' assumptions. As stated in the first post, "Suspicions" seemed to indicate that the Klingons themselves hold scientists in low esteem; and as I pointed out, "Judgment" pretty much said outright that pretty much all non-warrior classes in the empire have come to be marginalized and given less respect than the warriors. So it's not about whether we think warriors can be inventive; it's about whether the Klingons as a culture respect engineers and scientists. And there seems to be evidence that they don't, at least not during the points in their history that we've seen depicted onscreen.

That I do completely agree with. The onscreen appearance does not seem to suggest any respect for science. Though oddly enough Klingon Opera seems to be well respected even out side the empire?