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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old October 24 2012, 11:15 PM   #1561
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Yeah it does. Perhaps if he hadn't attended the weddiing at all? Which would then have attracted the attention of Kira, where he could then have said he can't be around them anymore.

It's such a shame the plotline was handled in this way. If they'd just had a little more faith in themselves and let Odo become isolated, they could have perhaps thought up something further down the line. The missed potential is comparable to the mishap over Section 31 in Extreme Measures.
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Old October 25 2012, 01:40 PM   #1562
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

apenpaap wrote: View Post
Also, this episode does indeed seem very much like Sisko got promoted, which is why I decided to consider him a Commodore for the rest of the series on my latest rewatch.
Which makes sense considering how he takes a leadership role in planning the war effort from now on, which seems odd considering he's a captain. But 24th century Starfleet doesn't seem to have commodores for some reason.


Favor the Bold (****½)

A week or so after getting promoted into a position of strategic power, Sisko manipulates Starfleet command into a push to retake DS9, ostensibly so as to take back control of the wormhole, but we know he really did it to get his baseball back. He amasses the largest fleet of Starfleet vessels assembled possibly in all of fictional history, and boy is that a sight to behold. And let us not forget the unsung hero of the Alpha Quadrant: Morn. If it wasn't for his bravery in sneaking a message out in a birthday ribbon then the Federation would have been doomed, and he did it all without once opening his mouth to complain.

Favor the Bold is a difficult episode to discuss because of how it's so tied in with the previous episode and what will happen in the next one. But while that makes for a difficult episode to review, it makes for a great viewing experience. Things are reaching boiling point, the characters on the station are slowly making their true colours known, both Quark and Ziyal are moving away from the neutral position and are turning on Dukat and the occupying forces, while Kira has had enough of Damar and beats him to holy hell. One interesting thing I didn't notice before is that Damar is revealing a lot of top secret information to Quark even though Damar must know that Quark's loyalties are divided right now. I used to think that this was because of Damar's overconfidence, but is it possible that this was the first sign that Damar's conscience was bothering him and he subconsciously told Quark in the hope that the Dominion would be stopped? That seems a little out there, but MA suggests that the writers were considering such things at this time.

Meanwhile, Odo has sex with the Female Changeling and she's so bad at it that he begins to regret siding with her. She was like a dead fish during the whole experience, which is completely unlike what Odo imagines Kira would be like, so he regrets having picked the Female Changeling over Kira. But Kira wants nothing to do with Odo, she's so pissed at him that she nearly beats him to hell just like she did to Damar, which simultaneously upsets Odo and reaffirms his belief of what she'd be like in bed. This is how I choose to explain the inconsistencies of this arc. (As an aside, calling the Female Changeling by that moniker is getting lame, I need a new name for her, like how I called The Doctor "K-Shmull". Any suggestions? Because if you guys don't come up with anything then I'll just come up with something stupid like F-Change.)
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Old October 25 2012, 06:35 PM   #1563
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

OhGodBen wrote: View Post

Meanwhile, Odo has sex with the Female Changeling and she's so bad at it that he begins to regret siding with her. She was like a dead fish during the whole experience, which is completely unlike what Odo imagines Kira would be like, so he regrets having picked the Female Changeling over Kira. But Kira wants nothing to do with Odo, she's so pissed at him that she nearly beats him to hell just like she did to Damar, which simultaneously upsets Odo and reaffirms his belief of what she'd be like in bed.
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Old October 25 2012, 07:17 PM   #1564
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

OhGodBen wrote: View Post
One interesting thing I didn't notice before is that Damar is revealing a lot of top secret information to Quark even though Damar must know that Quark's loyalties are divided right now. I used to think that this was because of Damar's overconfidence, but is it possible that this was the first sign that Damar's conscience was bothering him and he subconsciously told Quark in the hope that the Dominion would be stopped? That seems a little out there, but MA suggests that the writers were considering such things at this time.
While that does seem a bit extreme to me, and I wouldn't go as far as to suggest that he wanted the Dominion stopped (not yet, anyway), I can fully buy into the idea that he was using Quark as an outlet for his subconscious concerns, and perhaps giving himself some small breathing room by allowing the shape of the future to possibly end up in hands other than his own. I think Damar did indeed have niggling suspicions and unease regarding the Dominion membership, but as a loyal Cardassian (with personal loyalty to Dukat, at that) he couldn't confront how he was feeling. And things were moving so fast - when that minefield came down, as far as everyone knew, the triumph of the Dominion was at hand. Damar was helping this young alliance move toward domination of known space before he'd even had a chance to fully absorb where Dukat had taken them (or so I assume). Damar was personally creating the future, and I can't imagine he didn't already have some doubts.

So even though revealing your military agenda to a Ferengi barkeeper is never a good idea, particularly when said Ferengi barkeeper has potential ties to people who might oppose you, I think Damar didn't fully care, and I do think there may have been a bit of subconscious longing for "somebody take this weight off of my hands. I don't want to carry the burden of the future alone". Who knows? I think it's a great idea to mine for fan-fic, but who can say in terms of what we see on screen?

OhGodBen wrote: View Post
(As an aside, calling the Female Changeling by that moniker is getting lame, I need a new name for her, like how I called The Doctor "K-Shmull". Any suggestions? Because if you guys don't come up with anything then I'll just come up with something stupid like F-Change.)
I always disliked the term "Female Changeling", as though Odo is the Changeling and this one is differentiated by being female. I prefer "Founder Leader", since that's apparently what does distinguish her; even if she's not a leader in the eyes of her people (I doubt the Link has any), she's been selected to fulfil that role both for the Alpha Quadrant and, in a sense, for Odo. So you could call her The Leader; imagine it said in a creepy drawn-out voice like in that Simpsons episode with the cult. After all, that's sort of what she is - the cult leader trying to entrap Odo.
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Old October 25 2012, 08:57 PM   #1565
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

OhGodBen wrote: View Post
(As an aside, calling the Female Changeling by that moniker is getting lame, I need a new name for her, like how I called The Doctor "K-Shmull". Any suggestions? Because if you guys don't come up with anything then I'll just come up with something stupid like F-Change.)
Doctor Oho nicknamed her "War Criminal". Eh, more of a title than a name, so not much better than Female Changling.
Maybe Ms. Jens?
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Old October 25 2012, 09:19 PM   #1566
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I usually just call her The Founder.
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Old October 26 2012, 05:02 PM   #1567
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

OhGodBen wrote: View Post
As an aside, calling the Female Changeling by that moniker is getting lame, I need a new name for her, like how I called The Doctor "K-Shmull". Any suggestions? Because if you guys don't come up with anything then I'll just come up with something stupid like F-Change.
How about we call her Kerrigan, the Kerrigan from Starcraft as she is the most badass female villain out there.

Or maybe; The Queen of Goo -- or?
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Old October 26 2012, 05:10 PM   #1568
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
So you could call her The Leader; imagine it said in a creepy drawn-out voice like in that Simpsons episode with the cult. After all, that's sort of what she is - the cult leader trying to entrap Odo.
Hmm, it's a good idea but it needs a few extra rounds of free association.

The Leader -> nananananananana -> fishing -> dead fish

From now on I shall refer to the Female Changeling as Dead Fish.


Sacrifice of Angels (****½)

I'm aware of all the flaws in this episode, and if I hadn't been before then I'm sure that years of discussing Star Trek on the internet would have made me aware of them. So when I sat down to watch this episode last night I did so expecting that those flaws would be at the forefront of my mind. But they weren't, this episode grabbed me with its story, its action, and its characters. Yes, I agree that the Defiant being the only Federation ship to break through the Dominion's lines for several hours was mightily convenient. Yes, I too am confused about why Kira and Rom focused on disabling DS9's weapons when there were other Dominion ships around the station that could have blown up the minefield (real good). Yes, it was odd that Dead Fish seemed to know that Odo would betray her and she didn't tell anyone. And yes, I did see that Klingon ship accidentally destroy that other Klingon ship during the final push of the battle. Those flaws, and all the others, prevent this episode from getting 5 stars, but they didn't prevent me from having a damn good time watching it.

I know that the biggest controversy about the episode is the role that the Prophets play in disappearing the Dominion fleet. That's an argument as old as the episode itself and I don't see the benefit in repeating it here, so suffice it to say that I don't agree that it's a deus ex machina, and I actually like it as part of Sisko's arc as the Emissary. My personal view is that the Prophets' intervention indirectly led to Dukat's insanity, which caused him to try and release the Pah-Wraiths, and Sisko had to sacrifice his corporeal existence in the finale to prevent that. That's the penance he's forced to pay: Sisko wins the war for the Federation but at the cost of his future, his family, and his home. I know that a lot of people disagree with me about what happened with Sisko in the finale but that's the way I see it, and when Sisko's arc is viewed that way then this episode is the key moment in Sisko's journey.

Another thing that I like about this episode is that it is a focal point for the major story arcs as well as the minor character arcs. This is the only time in the series that I can think of when the Dominion arc and the Prophets arc intersect. Sisko's arc obviously plays a role as I've already explained. Odo's arc with the Changelings plays an important role in the episode, and while I have my problems with this arc and how it is ignored later, I have no problems with how it's addressed in this episode. Quark is forced to confront his principles, and this is one of the most important moments in his journey as he risks his life to save the galaxy. Ziyal's story comes to an end with her death, which also sends Dukat off in a new direction. That direction might not have been a good idea, but I feel that his descent into madness in this episode is actually well handled. A lot happens in this episode, and while there are certain obvious contrivances in the plot, the key moments and the story as a whole are still being driven by the characters themselves.

If you'll permit me to be shallow for a moment, the battle sequences in this episode are absolutely incredible, this is my favourite sci-fi battle sequence of all time. At the time the episode came out the visual effects were mind-blowing, and while the CG models are looking a little dated these days, the fast pace, the constant movement and explosions, the depiction of complete pandemonium, those things keep that sequence exciting to this day. The score to this episode is also magnificent, it captures the epic nature of the plot and enhances it, it's right up there with the score for The Best of Both Worlds in my opinion.
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Old October 26 2012, 05:37 PM   #1569
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Worf'sParmach wrote: View Post
OhGodBen wrote: View Post

Meanwhile, Odo has sex with the Female Changeling and she's so bad at it that he begins to regret siding with her. She was like a dead fish during the whole experience, which is completely unlike what Odo imagines Kira would be like, so he regrets having picked the Female Changeling over Kira. But Kira wants nothing to do with Odo, she's so pissed at him that she nearly beats him to hell just like she did to Damar, which simultaneously upsets Odo and reaffirms his belief of what she'd be like in bed.
You know that makes a lot more sense about why Odo switched back to the good guys side than anything else.
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Old October 26 2012, 05:39 PM   #1570
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Some good episodes at the start of S6.
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Old October 26 2012, 05:50 PM   #1571
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

OhGodBen wrote: View Post
Hmm, it's a good idea but it needs a few extra rounds of free association.

The Leader -> nananananananana -> fishing -> dead fish
How did you make that second (and for that matter, that first) leap??

That's actually an oddly appropriate final name, though, imho.

Spoilers abound ahead in my comments.

Sacrifice of Angels (****½)

I know that the biggest controversy about the episode is the role that the Prophets play in disappearing the Dominion fleet. That's an argument as old as the episode itself and I don't see the benefit in repeating it here, so suffice it to say that I don't agree that it's a deus ex machina, and I actually like it as part of Sisko's arc as the Emissary. My personal view is that the Prophets' intervention indirectly led to Dukat's insanity, which caused him to try and release the Pah-Wraiths, and Sisko had to sacrifice his corporeal existence in the finale to prevent that. That's the penance he's forced to pay: Sisko wins the war for the Federation but at the cost of his future, his family, and his home. I know that a lot of people disagree with me about what happened with Sisko in the finale but that's the way I see it, and when Sisko's arc is viewed that way then this episode is the key moment in Sisko's journey.
Interesting theory; I like, though I also think Ziyal's death (and arguably later, Jadzia's) is a perfectly good interpretation of the penance.

It brings up a fascinating problem with the Prophets. Since they exist outside of linear time, it is commonly assumed that they therefore have some simultaneous perception of the past, present and future. And if they can perceive the future, then they would know whether or not the Dominion was "meant" too succeed.

I guess you could argue that they have access to multiple pasts, presents and futures, and could see the Dominion-wins-at-Bajor scenario, and were convinced by Sisko to change "his" timeline's future to some other, non-Dominion-wins-at-Bajor scenario.

Still, I feel this interpretation gives the Prophets too much power. For all the fuss made about them, their powers actually seem pretty limited, restricted to the Wormhole and things related to the Orbs. I suppose this situation does technically fall within those bounds, since it occurs within the wormhole, but... ehn. I guess what it comes down to is that I don't think the Prophets caused the penance, whatever it actually is, despite what is implied in the episode. (ie. They didn't kill Ziyal, they didn't make Dukat go crazy, etc.)

Ziyal's story comes to an end with her death, which also sends Dukat off in a new direction. That direction might not have been a good idea, but I feel that his descent into madness in this episode is actually well handled. A lot happens in this episode, and while there are certain obvious contrivances in the plot, the key moments and the story as a whole are still being driven by the characters themselves.
Going slightly afield here (and going waaaaay into spoiler territory, be forewarned): your comment about Dukat, and the relative goodness of his new character direction, has got me thinking. It seems to me that if Dukat hadn't gone crazy, and had stayed active in the war working for the Dominion, it would have undercut the whole War Arc. Why? Because the stories would have made the war personal between Sisko and Dukat. Think about it. They'd been foes from day 1. The grand finale would've had to be Sisko and Dukat commanding opposing fleets, going after each other.

One of the great things about the War Arc was, well, how it drifted. Just like stuff does in real life. The Dominion War as depicted in "Behind The Lines" was completely different in its tone than what we saw in "The Siege of AR-558" or the Final Chapter. By the end of S7, the war had moved away from being driven by the characters' animosity for the enemy, or even their desire to defend the AQ, and had become a fact of life that had gotten away from everyone.

But if Dukat had stayed sane, I fear we would have ended up with the same sort of personalized story that we got with Sisko-Eddington, and that that would've overshadowed a lot of other things.

Also, Dukat clearly has a "thing" for Bajor. Yeah, he wants Cardassia strong, so he joins the Dominion and makes all this talk about conquering the Alpha Quadrant and stuff, but time and again, he demonstrates his fixation on Bajor, and to a lesser extent, Terok Nor and Captain Sisko. I honestly think that Dukat could've conquered the entire Federation Alliance, but if he didn't have Bajor, everything else would be irrelevant.

I've seen some really great psychoanalytic theories on Dukat here on the BBS, so I won't repeat those now, but suffice it to say that I don't think Dukat's current position was tenable long-term given his character. So I think where he ended up was much more appropriate to his character.

I wonder if the writers realized this consciously at the time.
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Old October 26 2012, 07:55 PM   #1572
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I still think Odo should've been the one killed at the end of this episode instead of Ziyal. He knowingly committed high treason against the Bajor and the Federation by linking with the Female Changeling. Kira would've been justified to execute him on the spot.

At the very least, Odo should've been a pariah for the rest of the show. A lovely example of Trek's "no consequences" way of handling things that really is glaring given that this was part of an arc where things ARE supposed to have consequences.
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Old October 26 2012, 09:21 PM   #1573
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I like Sacrifice of Angels too, but I disagree about the disappearing fleet. I definitely think it's a very egregious deus ex machina, though I agree it's an important part in the Sisko/Prophets story. However, I really don't think damaging the Dominion War story like this is worth advancing that storyline, and I'm sure there would've been some way to do it without deus ex machinaing the Dominion War storyline.

That said, I really love the scene were Sisko pleads with the Prophets to help. And the Dominion evacuating the station, especially Weyoun's "Time to start packing" and Dukat's fury is great too.
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Old October 27 2012, 01:12 PM   #1574
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Paper Moon wrote: View Post
How did you make that second (and for that matter, that first) leap??
Nananananananana fishing!

Nananananananana Leader!

For a time I was considering calling her Batman, but I decided that would be too confusing and went with Dead Fish.

I guess what it comes down to is that I don't think the Prophets caused the penance, whatever it actually is, despite what is implied in the episode. (ie. They didn't kill Ziyal, they didn't make Dukat go crazy, etc.)
I agree that the Prophets didn't cause the penance or Ziyal's death, or any of that. But the Prophets did have some sort of intent for Sisko to confront the Pah-Wraiths, and they saw that by destroying the Dominion ships that confrontation would happen differently and would involve Dukat, and they saw that it would end in Sisko's "death". They didn't cause those events to happen, but they allowed them to happen because Sisko was so insistent on destroying the fleet.

This theory of mine is actually based on the original ending for the show where Sisko was going to be trapped in the wormhole, but they changed it to the current version where Sisko said he would return because of Avery Brooks' concerns. My opinion is that Sisko said he would return because he was determined to do so but didn't realise that he couldn't. A lot of people disagree with me about that, but I think that Sisko being trapped in the wormhole makes more thematic sense than an ending where he can return at any time, so that's what I go with. And since I don't read the novels, I'm free to do so.


Nerys Dukat wrote: View Post
I still think Odo should've been the one killed at the end of this episode instead of Ziyal. He knowingly committed high treason against the Bajor and the Federation by linking with the Female Changeling. Kira would've been justified to execute him on the spot.
The way I see it, Odo was overwhelmed and made a mistake, but he soon realised that mistake and managed to save the day, so he can be forgiven. But that's just me being the softy liberal that I am.

apenpaap wrote: View Post
I like Sacrifice of Angels too, but I disagree about the disappearing fleet. I definitely think it's a very egregious deus ex machina, though I agree it's an important part in the Sisko/Prophets story.
I can certainly understand why you feel that way, I disliked the Prophets' intervention myself when I first saw it, but I guess I've just grown an appreciation for it over time. They could have just stopped the Dominion from taking down the minefield at the last second, but they decided to do something less expected and more personal instead. And like you said, I like the scene where Sisko pleads for help, it's an important part of his development.
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Old October 27 2012, 02:00 PM   #1575
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

OhGodBen wrote: View Post
This theory of mine is actually based on the original ending for the show where Sisko was going to be trapped in the wormhole, but they changed it to the current version where Sisko said he would return because of Avery Brooks' concerns. My opinion is that Sisko said he would return because he was determined to do so but didn't realise that he couldn't. A lot of people disagree with me about that, but I think that Sisko being trapped in the wormhole makes more thematic sense than an ending where he can return at any time, so that's what I go with. And since I don't read the novels, I'm free to do so.
Oh that bugs me so much when Sisko says that he'll return. It's sillyness. The Prophets don't experience time in the same way that we do, so why couldn't he be there with everyone else at the end of What You Leave Behind? He could be with the Prophets as long as was needed, and then be back in the blink of an eye. Sisko should have been stuck with the Prophets permanantly, as it's the only conclusion that makes sense emotionally during the final scenes.

I understand Brooks had concerns with the potentially bad taste that Star Trek's only black captain leaving his black wife and baby behind could leave. I just think that in a show like Star Trek, those kinds of things wouldn't (or shouldn't) be an issue with the audience anyway.

Sacrifice of Angels is a brilliant conclusion to the Occupation Arc, that only really faultered with Sons and Daughters. I agreeit wasn't perfect, but it's still a very powerful episode. It has never been the Prophets saving the day that bothered me in the episode, as that made sense in regards to Sisko's Emissary arc.

What did bother me was the Defiant being the only ship that made it through the blockade. That was a bit of a boner moment for the writers, and could have been written better. In the heat of everything gping to shit though, it only registers as a small gripe.
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