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Old October 25 2012, 07:08 AM   #46
KamenRiderBlade
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Re: Power of the Federation

Logically, the Federation should have the fastest tech level increases with the way their society is structured. The cooperation of over 150 species in all aspects of science, tech, and everything else in life is really quite a sight to behold from a long term perspective.

When you see the time traveler from the future in VOY that came back in the tiny shuttle craft, it single handedly had enough power to take out Voyager with it's Subatomic Disruptor. If Janeway didn't overload Braxton's emitter by matching Voyager's shield frequency with Aeon's disruptor, they would've been dead very fast from a futuristic shuttle.

So what does that say about tech progression, 1 little shuttle is enough power to take out Voyager if it hadn't figured out a technobabble solution to counter the shuttle's weapon system.

The Federation will still be around in the future, and it will have time travel capabilities.

The Federation is always coming up with new tech and integrating some of the newer stuff.

In the recent novels, they start mass producing Quantum Slipstream drives for the initial batch of new ships.

The Romulans steal the Prometheus Class because it's so powerful that it can take out a Romulan D'deridex class with so little effort.

Before the USS Enterprise-D had plenty of trouble dealing with just 1 of them a few years earlier.

This says alot about Starfleet putting it's talent on tech and making effective offensive / defensive ships.
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Old October 25 2012, 10:36 AM   #47
T'Girl
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Re: Power of the Federation

KamenRiderBlade wrote: View Post
So what does that say about tech progression, 1 little shuttle is enough power to take out Voyager ...
Today a small 40 year old fighter can fire a missile that can then destroy a top of the line naval cruiser.

With the correct weapon mounted on it, a TOS era shuttlecraft could destroy Voyager.

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Old October 25 2012, 11:19 AM   #48
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Re: Power of the Federation

The classic example of that might be from WWII were an obsolete Swordfish bi-plane managed to cripple the top of the line Bismark with a torpedeo.
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Old October 25 2012, 05:04 PM   #49
KamenRiderBlade
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Re: Power of the Federation

Exactly, creative thinking, unorthodox uses of technology, new technology for that matter.

The torpedo being mounted on a aircraft was new in WWII, it hadn't been done before that time AFAIK.
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Old October 26 2012, 12:23 AM   #50
The Green Mushroom
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Re: Power of the Federation

T'Girl wrote: View Post
KamenRiderBlade wrote: View Post
So what does that say about tech progression, 1 little shuttle is enough power to take out Voyager ...
Today a small 40 year old fighter can fire a missile that can then destroy a top of the line naval cruiser.

With the correct weapon mounted on it, a TOS era shuttlecraft could destroy Voyager.
I wouldn't be sure of that, as I understand how things work in Star Trek.

I have long believed that fighters would not work in Star Trek for one reason and one reason alone. Today, fighters work because they can carry missiles that can cripple a ship, if not directly cause it to sink. In Star Trek, at least among the major powers of the Alpha Quadrant, no one possesses a weapon that can take down a ship with its shields raised. And in a fight between a starship and a shuttle, I have seen nothing to indicate that a shuttle has better or more durable shields than a bigger ship.

A shuttle from the future disabling an intact Federation starship (and I will work the visual evidence of an always clean Voyager meaning that the crew can repair any damage they sustain with enough power for the replicators) means that the shuttle must be more advanced than the Voyager.
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Old October 26 2012, 01:41 AM   #51
T'Girl
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Re: Power of the Federation

T'Girl wrote: View Post
With the correct weapon mounted on it, a TOS era shuttlecraft could destroy Voyager.
The Green Mushroom wrote: View Post
I have long believed that fighters would not work in Star Trek ...

A shuttle from the future disabling an intact Federation starship ...
You would seem to be contradicting yourself here.

Nomenclature aside, a small craft damaged a large craft.

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Old October 26 2012, 02:48 AM   #52
EmperorTiberius
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Re: Power of the Federation

Arpy wrote: View Post
Both the Romulans and the Klingons have the benefit of being much older nations which I think explains how they're still competitive with the Federation - they've had more time to conquer and invent. The Klingons also have the benefit of alien tech early on via the Hur'q. Still, given the UFP is already ahead of them, I see the gap only widening the further ahead in the future you go. Cooperation, science, and altruism are more efficient and competitive than force, threat, and anger.
KamenRiderBlade wrote: View Post
Logically, the Federation should have the fastest tech level increases with the way their society is structured. The cooperation of over 150 species in all aspects of science, tech, and everything else in life is really quite a sight to behold from a long term perspective.
We don't really know how advanced other species are. The fact that Federation is dominated by humans would mean that humans are probably the most advanced species. Other species might be similar to stagnant Bajorans. That's why I don't put much stock into the 150 creative species theory. It might give Federation slight edge, but don't underestimate the power of disciplined totalitarian states like Romulans/Cardassians to make significant advances on their own.

Japanese and Germans in WWII made significant advancements in only a few years. Germans perfected the armored warfare and had best tank in the war. Japanese had biggest/may be best battleship. Soviets, through sheer numbers and industrial strength (their own and US's) pushed back more advanced Germans. Later on, they kept up with the resource-rich US just fine for decades.

For all we know, an old civilization like Klingons could be spread over 50,000 planets and outnumber young humans and most of their other members 10-1 in sheer manpower. This alone could make up for their lack of industrial efficiency and scientific diversity. Look at the standard of living in US compared to China, but Chinese are doing a good job of keeping up industrially, and may be they're even ahead of US in that area.
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Old October 26 2012, 03:16 AM   #53
KamenRiderBlade
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Re: Power of the Federation

EmperorTiberius wrote: View Post
Arpy wrote: View Post
Both the Romulans and the Klingons have the benefit of being much older nations which I think explains how they're still competitive with the Federation - they've had more time to conquer and invent. The Klingons also have the benefit of alien tech early on via the Hur'q. Still, given the UFP is already ahead of them, I see the gap only widening the further ahead in the future you go. Cooperation, science, and altruism are more efficient and competitive than force, threat, and anger.
KamenRiderBlade wrote: View Post
Logically, the Federation should have the fastest tech level increases with the way their society is structured. The cooperation of over 150 species in all aspects of science, tech, and everything else in life is really quite a sight to behold from a long term perspective.
We don't really know how advanced other species are. The fact that Federation is dominated by humans would mean that humans are probably the most advanced species. Other species might be similar to stagnant Bajorans. That's why I don't put much stock into the 150 creative species theory. It might give Federation slight edge, but don't underestimate the power of disciplined totalitarian states like Romulans/Cardassians to make significant advances on their own.

Japanese and Germans in WWII made significant advancements in only a few years. Germans perfected the armored warfare and had best tank in the war. Japanese had biggest/may be best battleship. Soviets, through sheer numbers and industrial strength (their own and US's) pushed back more advanced Germans. Later on, they kept up with the resource-rich US just fine for decades.

For all we know, an old civilization like Klingons could be spread over 50,000 planets and outnumber young humans and most of their other members 10-1 in sheer manpower. This alone could make up for their lack of industrial efficiency and scientific diversity. Look at the standard of living in US compared to China, but Chinese are doing a good job of keeping up industrially, and may be they're even ahead of US in that area.
Being Taiwanese, I know for a fact that the China is a rising economic power, but there technical capabilities leave a lot to be desired. What they do is copy whatever they are taught. They have a very hard time innovating on their own.
They also like to skimp on areas whenever possible.

Look at a Chinese made car being tested for safety.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5SRyG6UR2A

Would you pay money for a car of that safety caliber?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/06/bu...pagewanted=all

"Ford’s market research found that as recently as 2006, safety ranked last among the nine most important attributes for Chinese car buyers. Although safety has moved up to sixth, the exterior appearance of a car was the top priority for buyers then and now. "

"Chinese regulators are putting pressure on Chinese automakers to strengthen their designs. They have begun issuing star ratings for safety to cars sold in China, after copying the test methods from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in the United States. "

We've had lots of 5 Star rated safe cars in the US for how long? China is starting to issue star ratings? WTF?
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Old October 26 2012, 04:11 AM   #54
T'Girl
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Re: Power of the Federation

KamenRiderBlade wrote: View Post
Look at a Chinese made car being tested for safety.
Buy American.



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Old October 26 2012, 04:18 AM   #55
KamenRiderBlade
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Re: Power of the Federation

Buy non chinese and non korean made vehicles.

Japanese, American, German, UK vehicles are my choices.
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Old October 26 2012, 04:34 PM   #56
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Re: Power of the Federation

The Cardassians have been shown to be very weak, militarily. Benjamin Maxwell seemed likely to cripple the Union on his own. Since Cardassians don't believe in battlefield ethics or have war crimes, I assume that Nechayev's comment about war with the Cardassians costing millions of Federation lives referred to Cardassians being willing to obliterate civilian populations with sneak attacks, not actually posing a threat to the military.
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Old October 26 2012, 05:19 PM   #57
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Re: Power of the Federation

The Cardassians had individual ships that weren't a match for Maxwell's Phoenix or Picard's Enterprise, but as a state they were far more military-oriented than the Federation. If the Cardassians could out-number each Federation starship by 10-to-1 in an engagement, they could win every time. Eventually Maxwell would've been defeated, since eventually the Cardassians would've mustered a task force to destroy his ship.
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Old October 26 2012, 06:18 PM   #58
T'Girl
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Re: Power of the Federation

JRoss wrote: View Post
Benjamin Maxwell seemed likely to cripple the Union on his own.
Maxwell destroyed a supply depot, a supply ship with a small crew, and a single combat vessel of unknown size, it very unlikely one Starfleet ship could have crippled the Union on it's own.

The Cardassians have been shown to be very weak
Dialog strongly suggests otherwise, the Federation and the Union fought a protracted series of wars (hot and cold) over the course of decades. The treaty of Journey's End featured the Federation losing a sizable piece of the territory they were fighting over.

not actually posing a threat to the military
Remember many of Starfleets ships are quite old, lot's of Excelsiors still in service. Picard's previous command look to be from the TOS movie era, it ended up running from a Cardassian warship just to survive. The after battle of Wolf 359 showed a few connie "refit style" ships among the derelicts.

Starfleet would seem to have relatively few ships the size and power of Maxwell's Phoenix or Picard's Enterprise.

Nechayev's comment about war with the Cardassians costing millions of Federation lives referred to Cardassians being willing to obliterate civilian populations
Picard: "The last war caused massive destruction and cost millions of lives."

Picard would seem to be referring to the combined cost to both sides. He was speaking to a Cardassian officer at the time. Some of the deaths were to civilians, but there was infantry ground action too, a younger O'Brien participated in such.

Ship to ship combat occurred as well.

KamenRiderBlade wrote: View Post
Logically, the Federation should have the fastest tech level increases with the way their society is structured.
We know very little of how the Federation is internally structured. There has been conjecture from some fans on this board that the majority of the people in the Federation literally do absolutely nothing.

The cooperation of over 150 species in all aspects ...
But do they? During ENT, a Vulcan military cruiser traveled at warp seven. During TOS a century later, Kirk's ship cruised at warp six. Not much cooperation there. From what we saw in Journey to Babel, the members of the Federation can have a very adversarial relationship with each other.


Last edited by T'Girl; October 26 2012 at 06:36 PM.
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Old October 26 2012, 06:19 PM   #59
EmperorTiberius
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Re: Power of the Federation

Pavonis wrote: View Post
The Cardassians had individual ships that weren't a match for Maxwell's Phoenix or Picard's Enterprise, but as a state they were far more military-oriented than the Federation. If the Cardassians could out-number each Federation starship by 10-to-1 in an engagement, they could win every time. Eventually Maxwell would've been defeated, since eventually the Cardassians would've mustered a task force to destroy his ship.
Right. In video games (not cannon I know) Cardassians are presented as a race whose ships are designed for massed fleet engagements. They dont' work well on their own. They seemed to have been much more potent during Dominion War. It's also worth noting that Nebula and Galaxy class ships are not exactly the type of ship you'll find in every sector.
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Old October 26 2012, 07:14 PM   #60
KamenRiderBlade
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Re: Power of the Federation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWi-p...ure=plpp_video

If you look carefully at the Federation fleet, you'll notice that Nebula and Galaxy class are the minorities, but the other ships surround them and form Galaxy Wings because the Galaxy class is the centerpiece of each wing.

Most of the other ships are far older and from TOS era.
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