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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old October 13 2012, 10:46 PM   #16
G2309
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

It could have added some interesting character development if his shapeshifting improved. It wasn't used a lot in the series because the cost hindered them.
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Old October 17 2012, 07:51 AM   #17
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

Odo not having the disease is a continuity error. Since it's said later that he got the disease from Section 31 during season 4, you're right that he should have gotten sick. You could explain it away by saying that something on that planet cured Odo of the disease. Like the writers, I guess no one at DS9 remembered that particular detail and so they never thought to attempt to look for a cure on that planet.

As for Odo's shapeshifting ability, I'm with the side that says just because he has the memories doesn't mean he's able to do it.

Going a step further on the body builder example. Yes, if you had the memories of a body builder, you'd know how to build your muscles and get into excellent shape. But just having the memories alone isn't going to change your body. You'll still need to work at it.

The closest comparison I can think of in Trek is the Trill. Dax has other people's memories but that doesn't make her able to do everything the previous hosts could as well as they did just because she remembers it. She has the memories of a professional gymnast, but we never see any indication that she has any gymnastic abilities. We did see Ezri able to stand on her head against a wall. But that doesn't take a lot of gymnastic ability. -- I just tried it. It wasn't enjoyable, and I don't want to do it again. But I was able to do it, and I never learned gymnastics.

I also don't think she was as good with a Bat'leth as Curzon. Though that's just my take. There's nothing solid I can think of to back that opinion.

I do agree about wanting to see Odo's shapeshifting improve. I thought the same thing even before "Children of Time". It would have been cool if Odo had gradually gotten just a bit better each season to show he was learning.
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Old October 17 2012, 09:05 PM   #18
Timo
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

"Children of Time" was certainly after the time Odo was infected
Since it's said later that he got the disease from Section 31 during season 4, you're right that he should have gotten sick.
However, "Children of Time" is also after "Broken Link", where Odo necessarily was cured of the disease.

Remember, it's a disease that affects Changelings. Odo ceased to be a Changeling in "Broken Link", the same episode where he supposedly infected the Great Link of the Founders. The disease might survive in the altered Odo, but it would be perfectly okay to say that the alteration cured Odo, and that he only got re-infected during the Re-Occupation Arc when linking with the Female Changeling.

After all, Odo got sick significantly later than the Founders. He developed the very first symptoms at a point where the Female Founder was already incapable of changing her shape and literally falling apart.

He regained his Changeling-ness in "The Begotten", by linking with a Baby Changeling. We might speculate that this Baby was sent by the Great Link as a means of testing Odo and then restoring Odo's Changeling-ness, now that the Great Link had judged Odo to have suffered his punishment in full and demonstrated that he was a good Changeling again. But even in such a case, the Baby might have remained free of the disease. And were it a true One of the Hundred, it would be disease-free by default.

It's perfectly possible, then, that at the time of "Children of Time", Odo was free of the disease, and that self of his that got stuck on the planet would never develop the symptoms.

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Old October 18 2012, 12:24 AM   #19
Tiberius
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

Timo wrote: View Post
"Children of Time" was certainly after the time Odo was infected
Since it's said later that he got the disease from Section 31 during season 4, you're right that he should have gotten sick.
However, "Children of Time" is also after "Broken Link", where Odo necessarily was cured of the disease.

Remember, it's a disease that affects Changelings. Odo ceased to be a Changeling in "Broken Link", the same episode where he supposedly infected the Great Link of the Founders. The disease might survive in the altered Odo, but it would be perfectly okay to say that the alteration cured Odo, and that he only got re-infected during the Re-Occupation Arc when linking with the Female Changeling.

After all, Odo got sick significantly later than the Founders. He developed the very first symptoms at a point where the Female Founder was already incapable of changing her shape and literally falling apart.

He regained his Changeling-ness in "The Begotten", by linking with a Baby Changeling. We might speculate that this Baby was sent by the Great Link as a means of testing Odo and then restoring Odo's Changeling-ness, now that the Great Link had judged Odo to have suffered his punishment in full and demonstrated that he was a good Changeling again. But even in such a case, the Baby might have remained free of the disease. And were it a true One of the Hundred, it would be disease-free by default.

It's perfectly possible, then, that at the time of "Children of Time", Odo was free of the disease, and that self of his that got stuck on the planet would never develop the symptoms.

Timo Saloniemi
But if the baby was a way to see if Odo was wortrhy of being a changeling again, why would they put the baby at risk? They did make it very sick, after all.

My interpretation of the whole thing is that the Founders made Odo a solid by shapeshifting him into a fully working Human, with internal organs etc, then removing his morphogenic enzymes, leaving him with no way to shapeshift to another form.

Then the baby comes along, and at the end of the episode it is absorbed into Odo, replenishing his morphogenic enzymes and allowing Odo to shapeshift once more.
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Old October 18 2012, 01:10 AM   #20
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

Yeah I always had it figured that he was infected by Section 31 on Earth, delivered it to them in Broken Link, lost it when he was turned into a solid. Regained his powers, then got it again when he linked with the female Shapeshifter.

That would also explain why he didn't show signs of the disease until after she did.
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Old October 18 2012, 10:04 AM   #21
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

why would they put the baby at risk?
Why not? Changelings risking their babies is an established DS9 fact - that's what the Hundred were all about. If Odo failed to go through the motions of saving the baby, they'd either send another, or judge Odo unworthy of redemption.

That would also explain why he didn't show signs of the disease until after she did.
I just had a thought about the timing. Odo got as bad as the Female Changeling only about half a season after her; if the FC got the disease in "Broken Link", then "The Begotten" would be the right time for Odo to re-catch it...

Then again, the disease apparently manifests faster and worse if the Changeling in question shapeshifts a lot. For all we know, the Female Founder had less shapeshifting activity than Odo did, what with being a leader rather than a soldier and all. Thus, the FC would go from infection to heavy symptoms in 2.5 seasons, while Odo would take just 1.5-2 seasons to get to the same state.

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Old October 18 2012, 11:25 AM   #22
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

Timo wrote: View Post
why would they put the baby at risk?
Why not? Changelings risking their babies is an established DS9 fact - that's what the Hundred were all about. If Odo failed to go through the motions of saving the baby, they'd either send another, or judge Odo unworthy of redemption.

That would also explain why he didn't show signs of the disease until after she did.
I just had a thought about the timing. Odo got as bad as the Female Changeling only about half a season after her; if the FC got the disease in "Broken Link", then "The Begotten" would be the right time for Odo to re-catch it...

Then again, the disease apparently manifests faster and worse if the Changeling in question shapeshifts a lot. For all we know, the Female Founder had less shapeshifting activity than Odo did, what with being a leader rather than a soldier and all. Thus, the FC would go from infection to heavy symptoms in 2.5 seasons, while Odo would take just 1.5-2 seasons to get to the same state.

Timo Saloniemi
Well Odo's on record at keeping the shapeshifting to a minimum becomes it reminds people he's different. So aside from switching from humanoid form to goo once a day, unless there's a need he typically doesn't do it.

The Founders think that part of being a shapeshifter is turning into things for the heck of it so they can learn what it means to be a thing. Be it clouds, rocks, plants or what not. So I'd think the FF would've been more inclined towards "recreational shapeshifting" than Odo. Especially when she's in the Alpha Quadrant before the war. So chances are she'd be undercover at some point too.

I'm inclined to think that the baby shapeshifter in the Begotten is what is claimed. One of the Hundred that Quark just happened to chance upon and therefore didn't have the Section 31 disease.
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Old October 19 2012, 08:06 AM   #23
Timo
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

I'd prefer that explanation as well (why would the Link forgive Odo so easily?). There's just one thing there that smells a bit fishy...

...Quark sells it to Odo for eight slips, after minimal haggling. Would he do that if he weren't already being paid much more handsomely by somebody who wanted the lump of goo to be delivered to Odo?

Check the Memory Alpha entry for what eight slips would otherwise get you. An elevator ride, or 80% of a root beer case, is the going price for a Baby Changeling?

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Old October 21 2012, 05:37 AM   #24
Pavonis
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

It's not like there's much of a market for baby Changelings, is there? Who else would be willing to pay anything for one, much less more than 8 slips?

The Federation might want a baby Changeling for study, but they're not going to pay Quark for it. They'd just confiscate it.

The Romulans might want it, too, but they'd probably just steal it.

The Klingons would just kill it.

The Cardassians might actually pay for it, but would even Quark want to deal with them at that time?

No, I think 8 slips was probably a good deal for both parties involved.
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Old October 21 2012, 07:38 AM   #25
Tiberius
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

But even if there is only one person you can sell to, if the thing you have to sell is something very very important to him, he's still going to pay a lot for it.
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Old October 21 2012, 04:00 PM   #26
Pavonis
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

If Quark pushed Odo too hard, though, he'd lose the sale completely. Odo wasn't going to be stymied in his acquisition of the baby changeling by mere financial considerations. If the price was outrageous, Odo might have the Bajoran government or Starfleet intervene, and Quark would lose out on the transaction completely. Remember, the last time Quark reported a found baby, Sisko confiscated the entire wreckage in which it was found! So maybe Quark took a "loss" on the baby Changeling in order to prevent the authorities from inspecting whatever else he acquired when he found the baby.
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Old October 24 2012, 06:38 PM   #27
Tom Riker
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

Do you think Miles told keiko about Rita? I wouldn’t tell Keiko about Rita.
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Old October 24 2012, 09:07 PM   #28
Pavonis
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

There's nothing to tell, since it never happened to the Miles that made it back to Keiko. What would he say, anyway - "Hi honey! In an alternate timeline where we were separated forever, I married another woman."
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Old October 24 2012, 09:44 PM   #29
Tom Riker
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

Pavonis wrote: View Post
There's nothing to tell, since it never happened to the Miles that made it back to Keiko. What would he say, anyway - "Hi honey! In an alternate timeline where we were separated forever, I married another woman."
And passive agressive husband abusing Keiko would've been okay with that?
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Old October 24 2012, 09:53 PM   #30
Pavonis
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Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

Yeah, I've been rewatching DS9 and I'm not seeing the evidence for a bitchy, passive-aggressive Keiko that some people make her out to be.
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