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Old October 24 2012, 06:15 AM   #16
Timo
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Re: Romulan Klingon War

Isn't Khitmoer under Romulan control?
In the immediate aftermath of the Romulan attack, it wasn't under Romulan control - a Starfleet vessel was able to get there to look for Klingon survivors, and didn't have to get permission from Romulans, because that would have counted as "direct contact" which we know did not take place between 2311 and 2364.

Later on, we hear very little about the place. But in DS9 "When It Rains...", the first meeting between Admiral Ross and Chancellor Gowron is said to have taken place on Khitomer. Ross is in his apparent fifties; Gowron is of indeterminate age. For most of their lifetimes, Romulans would not have been letting either Feds or Klingons on their property.

So the meeting might establish Khitomer as being Klingon- or Federation-owned in the timespan from the Romulan surprise attack to the final year of the Dominion War. Or then the meeting might have taken place during that final war year, when Romulans would be allies, and might invite Klingons and Feds to Khitomer for old times' sake.

We just don't know for sure. We also don't know who owned the planet during ST6:TUC. Was it considered neutral in the UFP/KE conflict because it was a Romulan world? Or was the planet owned by those human-looking folks wearing green sashes and sitting under a green sunrise flag?

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Old October 24 2012, 01:56 PM   #17
Pavonis
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Re: Romulan Klingon War

Hawaii didn't become Japanese territory after they struck Pearl Harbor. Why would Khitomer necessarily fall into Romulans hands just because they struck at the Klingon colony there? There were something like 4000 colonists killed, but out of how large a population? 4001? 40000? 400000? Was the Klingon population of Khitomer ever established?
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Old October 24 2012, 05:30 PM   #18
EmperorTiberius
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Re: Romulan Klingon War

Yeah, but if today, Hawaii were part of Japanese Empire, you would think that the war ended differently than with Nagasaki
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Old October 24 2012, 06:14 PM   #19
Elvira
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Re: Romulan Klingon War

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Hawaii didn't become Japanese territory after they struck Pearl Harbor.
Guam did, at least until America took it back.

There were something like 4000 colonists killed, but out of how large a population?
Many of the places that the Japanese took over in WWII, the civilian populations far outnumbered the invaders. If Khitomer, and it's population, were under Romulan control following the attack, they would hold the planet as territory, until someone in turn took it from them.

However long that was.

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Old October 24 2012, 09:03 PM   #20
Pavonis
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Re: Romulan Klingon War

But there's no hint that the Romulans ever held Khitomer, just that they attacked it. We have no astropolitical context for the attack, either. Were the Romulans striking back at Klingons for a previous assault? Were the Romulans that hit Khitomer even acting under the orders of the Senate? Could they have been Romulan privateers or perhaps renegades?

Given that Narendra and Khitomer were struck within two years of each other suggests that there was a state of war between the Klingons and the Romulans, but how invested each side was in the war is unclear. There may not have been any exchange of territories at all during this war, just hit-and-run attacks on planets and some ship-to-ship battles.
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Old October 25 2012, 02:40 AM   #21
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Re: Romulan Klingon War

Pavonis wrote: View Post
But there's no hint that the Romulans ever held Khitomer, just that they attacked it.
It does appear to be inside Romulan territory by TNG. So it was either captured or later negotiated away.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__...thright_II.jpg
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Old October 25 2012, 03:03 AM   #22
Pavonis
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Re: Romulan Klingon War

Well, what do you know? The Federation considers Khitomer to be within the Romulan sphere of influence, if not Romulan territory outright.

Maybe the Klingons were the aggressors prior to the 2340s, and managed to take and hold it long enough to settle a colony...and then the Romulans managed to drive the Klingons off Khitomer.

I wonder if Narendra III is Klingon or Romulan territory.
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Old October 25 2012, 03:19 AM   #23
AggieJohn
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Re: Romulan Klingon War

I have to wonder if the "conflict" was not more an unofficial conflict in which a splinter faction in the Romulan Empire struck at the Klingons, perhaps even a specific family(s) within the Klingon Empire. Like a vindenta, I mean there were still Klingons working with the Romulans during the time of the Klingon Civil war so as much as they hate each other, that is not the view held by all.

That would also explain why all out war was never achieved during that time, because there were Klingons keeping peace. This is not the case with the Federation other than perhaps Dax.
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Old October 25 2012, 02:27 PM   #24
Timo
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Re: Romulan Klingon War

Good catch there with "Birthright"!

Maybe the Klingons were the aggressors prior to the 2340s, and managed to take and hold it long enough to settle a colony...
They'd have to be. In the 2290s, the place was still "neutral" in terms of Klingon or Federation presence.

It might have been under Romulan control back then already. Klingons apparently didn't know that Romulans were in cahoots with the Feds and taking part in their secret presidential briefings and whatnot, so they'd probably agree to having Romulans mediate. (I wonder if even Chang knew?)

But it could have been under fourth party control as well, given the four prominent colors of sashes and flags there.

I have to wonder if the "conflict" was not more an unofficial conflict in which a splinter faction in the Romulan Empire struck at the Klingons, perhaps even a specific family(s) within the Klingon Empire.
Indeed, the Klingons themselves probably do something like that often enough, to their own.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old October 25 2012, 05:17 PM   #25
C.E. Evans
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Re: Romulan Klingon War

Another possibility is that Khitomer and Narendra III may have been colonized during the time the Klingons and the Romulans were allies. When the alliance ended, the Klingon colonies there were made immediate trespassers in Romulan territory and were removed by force.

A similar situation almost happened between the Federation and the Sheliak over Tau Cygna V.
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Old October 25 2012, 11:06 PM   #26
AggieJohn
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Re: Romulan Klingon War

That is very likely but the murder of those people justified or not would still likely prompt a significant response unless they had settled there without permission or against the advice of the Empire.

That is an aspect to consider though. Was the attacks against the Klingon colonies random acts of cruelty by the Romulans or in response to unchecked Klingon expansion. There did seem to be a period of rapid Klingon expansion in the 23rd century, not all of which was military in nature. I think of the race by the Federation to claim Sherman's planet before the Klingons did. The Romulan response may have been very different. But even that who was going out to colonize these new worlds? Perhaps fundamentalist or the extreme poor? There was clear examples of classiest views even in the 24th century so the Empire might have seen the massacre as bad but just a bunch of undesirables not worthy of a actual full scale war.
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Old October 25 2012, 11:11 PM   #27
Pavonis
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Re: Romulan Klingon War

Could Khitomer have been the Australia of the Klingon Empire, then? But what of the honorable and well-liked Mogh, son of Worf? Surely he wasn't one of the dregs of society, was he?
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Old October 26 2012, 01:01 AM   #28
C.E. Evans
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Re: Romulan Klingon War

AggieJohn wrote: View Post
That is very likely but the murder of those people justified or not would still likely prompt a significant response unless they had settled there without permission or against the advice of the Empire.
The Klingons' response to Khitomer and Narendra III may have been anything short of a full-out war.
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Old October 26 2012, 07:39 AM   #29
Timo
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Re: Romulan Klingon War

Was the attacks against the Klingon colonies random acts of cruelty by the Romulans or in response to unchecked Klingon expansion.
Might have been something much more specific. Perhaps Khitomer

a) was a sore point for a certain Romulan family that had invested a lot in the local agriculture once
b) featured a rare, rich deposit of tri-mysterium
c) was suspected of being center of bioweapon development
d) was home to a Klingon individual who stood in the way of closer Klingon/Romulan cooperation
e) harbored a Romulan defector

?

Timo Saloniemi
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Old October 26 2012, 06:00 PM   #30
AggieJohn
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Re: Romulan Klingon War

That is an interesting point. D) home to a specific Klingon that stood in the way of Romulan-Klingon relations.

Wolfs father had been a major player in the peace with the Federation. It would be in the Romulans best interest to see the two powers at each others throats. The irony was that they did not count on the Enterprise C's response which paradoxically strengthened relations. I mean consider in the parallel universe without the interaction the Federation and Klingons eventually went to war so Khitomer peace accords, without the Enterprise C's actions, fail to secure a lasting peace. I would suspect it was Romulan actions that help spur on that war, it might even explain that the Federation was losing.
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