RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,531
Posts: 5,512,745
Members: 25,138
Currently online: 636
Newest member: Bazzzz85

TrekToday headlines

Two New Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Dec 26

Captain Kirk’s Boldest Missions
By: T'Bonz on Dec 25

Trek Paper Clips
By: T'Bonz on Dec 24

Sargent Passes
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

QMx Trek Insignia Badges
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

And The New Director Of Star Trek 3 Is…
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

TV Alert: Pine On Tonight Show
By: T'Bonz on Dec 22

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 18 2012, 11:55 PM   #46
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: Abandoned and damaged starships

Timo wrote: View Post
But then in that case Kirk wouldn't have asserted that the reason for there being no life was because the M5 had murdered it. You don't likely get a second chance to out-think a super smart machine.
That assumes that M5 would have been as well versed in Constitution evacuation procedures as Kirk. But since it's a machine that's not supposed to have any crew, Kirk might trust it would not stop to consider evacuation as a reason for the total loss of life at the ship it had targeted...
Considering M5 schooled Kirk on proper selection of a landing party and led Scotty and Spock on a wild goose chase on how to divert control of the ship it would be very safe to say that M5 is well versed in all things Constitution-class including evacuation procedures.

But as you point out, it's one weakness is that it has Daystrom's failings and that is what Kirk used against it. However, for Kirk's argument to work, M5 really needed to believe that it murdered the crew of the Excalibur and that would suggest that it indeed did so.
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 19 2012, 12:03 AM   #47
Merry Christmas
Vice Admiral
 
Merry Christmas's Avatar
 
Location: tantalizing t'girl's techno temenos
Re: Abandoned and damaged starships

Knight Templar wrote: View Post
Kirk could also have known there was "no life" aboard the Excalibur because he knew full well all the surviving crew would've already abandoned ship by the time he asks M-5 the question.
How would Kirk have known this? And why would the crew immediately abandon ship, unless the ship were about to blow up. Which it didn't. If a portion of the crew survived the phaser assault, the first action on their part would be damage control, returning to the fight and assist the other Starship combating the Enterprise.

Running to get into thin skinned life boats and risking being "machine gunned in the water" in the middle of a battle, bad idea.

And given the magnitude of the supposed damage to the Excalibur, why would Kirk assume that any of the life pods/life boats still existed? Given the locations we seen them on other ships, they would seem to be pretty vulnerable.

And with the ongoing battle, another starship pulling alongside, dropping it's shield and beaming off personnel, is unlikely.

Merry Christmas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 19 2012, 01:42 AM   #48
Unwrapped
Continuity Spackle
 
Unwrapped's Avatar
 
Location: The mockingjay soars (Unicron)
Send a message via ICQ to Unwrapped
Re: Abandoned and damaged starships

Timo wrote: View Post
One argument in favor of many if not most of the Excalibur crew surviving is that we don't know of any mechanism by which phasers could kill the crew of a starship while leaving the ship visibly intact.

Decompression is unlikely to work against a compartmentalized starship. Phasers aren't credited with radiation effects that could "poison" the crew to death. And settings comparable to wide field stun have never been shown to be lethal, least of all against targets inside a building or a vehicle.

Timo Saloniemi
Hmmm... maybe the Excalibur crew were all standing next to exploding instrument panels?
__________________

"If you think you're brave enough to walk the path of honor, then follow me into the dragon's den."


Knight Exemplar
Unwrapped is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 19 2012, 05:43 AM   #49
Knight Templar
Commodore
 
Location: Oklahoma
Re: Abandoned and damaged starships

Timo wrote: View Post
In terms of reasoning? Nomad was crazy; Kirk didn't reason with it, Kirk just confused it and drove it deeper into its madness. Again, his MO was to treat the intelligent machine as a fallible fellow intellect, subject to hubris and pride, self-doubt and regret, and strike at the weak points of its personality.

Had Nomad been an analytical machine, it could have simply declared Kirk's facts "uncoordinated" once more, and ignored the rantings about "errors" while defining "sterilization" as only applying to lifeforms and declaring itself exempt from its own rules. But Nomad had glued random fragments of two incompatible sets of operating instructions together into a jumbled mess that was so self-contradictory that Kirk only needed to give it a random push and it fell apart. M5 was a tougher nut to crack...

Timo Saloniemi
Agreed.

Remember, Nomad was not even really a human built thinking space probe anymore (Kirk said that), it was an incredibly powerful (overpowered) space probe that cobbled itself a new programming directive based only partially on its original orders.

We're talking about a "thinking machine" that couldn't tell the difference between "James T. Kirk" and "Jackson Roykirk".
Knight Templar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 19 2012, 07:10 AM   #50
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Abandoned and damaged starships

The error would of course be a bit more understandable if it were James R. Kirk.

Curious how "The Changeling" is basically the only bit of Star Trek where our hero introduces himself as "James Kirk" (thrice!) rather than using his middle initial. Was the writer actually thinking in terms of Kirk's tombstone from the pilot episode, then caught his error, and hastily removed the counterproductive references to the middle initial?

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 19 2012, 12:58 PM   #51
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: Abandoned and damaged starships

Kirk uses "James Kirk" about 15 or so times vs "James T Kirk" only 8 times during TOS. Kirk was lucky that he was in a "no middle initial" kind of day with Nomad.
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 19 2012, 01:01 PM   #52
Knight Templar
Commodore
 
Location: Oklahoma
Re: Abandoned and damaged starships

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Kirk uses "James Kirk" about 15 or so times vs "James T Kirk" only 8 times during TOS. Kirk was lucky that he was in a "no middle initial" kind of day with Nomad.
He was also very lucky that Spock caught the significance of the name just a milisecond before Kirk would've doomed them all.

People forget that despite Kirks "arguing Nomad to death" it was Kirk who endangered the whole crew (and humanity itself) by snapping at Nomad that his "creator was a biological unit" after being angry about Nomad killing two security guards.
Knight Templar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 20 2012, 11:17 PM   #53
Merry Christmas
Vice Admiral
 
Merry Christmas's Avatar
 
Location: tantalizing t'girl's techno temenos
Re: Abandoned and damaged starships

Timo wrote: View Post
The error would of course be a bit more understandable if it were James R. Kirk.
If TPTB had made Kirk's middle name "Roy," then Nomad's confusing Jackson Roykirk with James Roy Kirk would have been even more understandable.

Roy is a perfectly good middle name.


Merry Christmas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 22 2012, 10:31 AM   #54
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Abandoned and damaged starships

To give it all an appropriate 1960s twist, James Sunrae Kirk would have worked the best of all...

Funny the way memory plays tricks on you. I could have sworn "James Kirk" was a rare occurrence compared with "James T. Kirk".

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 24 2012, 01:41 AM   #55
Wingsley
Commodore
 
Wingsley's Avatar
 
Location: Wingsley
Re: Abandoned and damaged starships

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Considering M5 schooled Kirk on proper selection of a landing party and led Scotty and Spock on a wild goose chase on how to divert control of the ship it would be very safe to say that M5 is well versed in all things Constitution-class including evacuation procedures.

But as you point out, it's one weakness is that it has Daystrom's failings and that is what Kirk used against it. However, for Kirk's argument to work, M5 really needed to believe that it murdered the crew of the Excalibur and that would suggest that it indeed did so.
Nah. Not buying that.

Too much is being made of Kirk telling the M-5 tie-in "because you murdered it!"

It is not necessary for the M-5's attack on the Excalibur to have killed the entire crew in order for Kirk's moral plea to carry weight. The dialogue between Kirk and the M-5 tie-in was simply dramatic short-hand that M-5's attack killed people, period. It didn't have to kill all 400+ (although that does work dramatically in that scene), just that the attack cost lives rather than saved them. Earlier in the episode Dr. Daystom laments this point:

[Engineering]

MCCOY: Have you found a solution, a way to shut that thing off?

DAYSTROM: You don't shut a child off when it makes a mistake. M-5 is growing, learning.

MCCOY: Learning to kill!

DAYSTROM: To defend itself! Quite a different thing! When a child is taught, it's programmed with simple instructions, and at some point, if its mind develops properly, it exceeds the sum of what it was taught, thinks independently.

MCCOY: That thing is a danger to us all. Now find some way to shut it off.

DAYSTROM: You can't understand! You're frightened because you can't understand! I'm going to show you! I'm going to show all of you! It takes four hundred thirty people to man a starship. With this, you don't need anyone! One machine can do all those things they send men out to do now. Men no longer need die in space or on some alien world! Men can live and go on to achieve greater things than fact-finding and dying for galactic space, which is neither ours to give or to take! They can't understand. We don't want to destroy life, we want to save it!
It seems from this scene that Daystrom believed his creation would save lives by making astronauts either obsolete or mostly supplanted by AI-driven space travel. McCoy had to share this with Kirk (we see at least part of their conversation in the briefing room; there was likely more on their way to meet Spock and Scott in the Jefferies Tube) because McCoy recognized that the conversation in the Engine Room gave him insight into Daystrom's p.o.v.

Subsequently, when Kirk confronted the M-5 tie-in that M-5's war-on-Wesley's-Task-Force was resulting in the loss of lives, it shouldn't matter whether it was 40 or 400. Murder is murder. That's what Kirk impressed on the "Ultimate Computer". Obviously, Kirk was appealing to Daystrom's (implied) prime directive: "Men can live and go on to achieve greater things than fact-finding and dying for galactic space, which is neither ours to give or to take... ... We don't want to destroy life, we want to save it!"

When Kirk confronted the M-5 tie-in with this dilemma, M-5 realized that it had defeated its own "purpose in life" and witness the result:

KIRK: And how will you pay for your acts of murder?

M5 TIE-IN: This... unit... must... die.

My reasoning in pointing out the Enterprise crew's brighter mood prior to setting course for the space station (instead of mourning the loss of an entire sistership's crew) was that (1: obviously some time had passed between Wesley giving the cease-fire order over the radio and McCoy's report to Kirk on Daystrom's condition in Sickbay, clearly spelled out using the starship visual as a "fragmentation of time" device implying "later..."; and (2: nobody seems bitter or sad; they actually seem relieved and upbeat, which suggests to me that the M-5 war-games disaster did have a silver lining: at least some of the Excalibur crew survived and were rescued, possibly transferred to the Enterprise. (this would explain how the ship could make it back to the space station without M-5's help)
__________________
"The way that you wander is the way that you choose. / The day that you tarry is the day that you lose. / Sunshine or thunder, a man will always wonder / Where the fair wind blows ..."
-- Lyrics, Jeremiah Johnson's theme.

Last edited by Wingsley; October 24 2012 at 01:48 AM. Reason: typo
Wingsley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 24 2012, 04:20 AM   #56
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: Abandoned and damaged starships

Sure, I get the moral directive that Kirk lays on M5. However, I don't think that much time elapsed between Wesley's report and their retreating outside of phaser range - which is a considerable distance.

The only options for the crew of the Excalibur are
1) escape by shuttles
2) escape by primary hull detachment
3) escape by beam out to friendly ships

1 and 2 didn't occur so that leaves 3. It is possible during that time when M5 turned to chase Potemkin that Lexington and Hood moved in and beamed out the survivors. If that is the case, then this is an interesting example of the ability to beam a whole bunch of people by a starship(s).

However, I'd imagine the dead bodies stayed aboard for Kirk's strategy to work.
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 24 2012, 05:17 AM   #57
Knight Templar
Commodore
 
Location: Oklahoma
Re: Abandoned and damaged starships

If you want to consider EVERY word spoken by Kirk to be the literal truth then answer this:

why did Lexington, Excalibur, Hood, & Potemkin have only 1,600 crewman aboard (400 per vessel probably).

Kirk

"Four starships! 1,600 men and women!"

If they had the same size crew as the Enterprise he should've said

"four starships! 1,720 men and women!"
Knight Templar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 24 2012, 05:28 AM   #58
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: Abandoned and damaged starships

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Sure, I get the moral directive that Kirk lays on M5. However, I don't think that much time elapsed between Wesley's report and their retreating outside of phaser range - which is a considerable distance.

The only options for the crew of the Excalibur are
1) escape by shuttles
2) escape by primary hull detachment
3) escape by beam out to friendly ships

1 and 2 didn't occur so that leaves 3. It is possible during that time when M5 turned to chase Potemkin that Lexington and Hood moved in and beamed out the survivors. If that is the case, then this is an interesting example of the ability to beam a whole bunch of people by a starship(s).

However, I'd imagine the dead bodies stayed aboard for Kirk's strategy to work.
Plus as T'Girl points out is the crew really going to completely abandon the ship instead of trying to repair it in the middle of combat.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 24 2012, 05:55 AM   #59
Wingsley
Commodore
 
Wingsley's Avatar
 
Location: Wingsley
Re: Abandoned and damaged starships

My assumption was that a portion of Excalibur's crew did die (probably more than the 53 dead aboard the Lexington), but the majority survived and were trapped aboard. As we've seen in other eps of TOS and TNG ("For the World is Hollow, And I Have Touched the Sky" for one, "Heart of Glory" for another) it is possible in the STAR TREK Universe for life signs to be masked aboard a space vessel, particularly one that is damaged/emitting radiation.

So, it's entirely possible, given these other precedents, that the majority of the Excalibur's crew was trapped aboard the derelict ship, and the Enterprise's scanners were unable to detect survivors unless the Enterprise either scanned at extremely close range (never shown to be the case) or actually boarded the Excalibur.

While evacuating the Excalibur is an interesting thought, it wasn't necessary. Excalibur's crew could have been trapped and isolated from all other ships until the war games crisis had been terminated.
__________________
"The way that you wander is the way that you choose. / The day that you tarry is the day that you lose. / Sunshine or thunder, a man will always wonder / Where the fair wind blows ..."
-- Lyrics, Jeremiah Johnson's theme.
Wingsley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 24 2012, 06:24 AM   #60
Wingsley
Commodore
 
Wingsley's Avatar
 
Location: Wingsley
Re: Abandoned and damaged starships

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Sure, I get the moral directive that Kirk lays on M5. However, I don't think that much time elapsed between Wesley's report and their retreating outside of phaser range - which is a considerable distance.

The only options for the crew of the Excalibur are
1) escape by shuttles
2) escape by primary hull detachment
3) escape by beam out to friendly ships

1 and 2 didn't occur so that leaves 3. It is possible during that time when M5 turned to chase Potemkin that Lexington and Hood moved in and beamed out the survivors. If that is the case, then this is an interesting example of the ability to beam a whole bunch of people by a starship(s).

However, I'd imagine the dead bodies stayed aboard for Kirk's strategy to work.
You misunderstood what I was saying. You must be thinking of a different scene.

The fragmentation of time I was talking about took place here:

[Lexington Bridge]

WESLEY: The Enterprise looks dead! I'm going to take a chance he's not just laying a trap. Wesley to attack force.

[Enterprise Bridge]

UHURA: Captain!

WESLEY [OC]: Break off attack! Do not fire! The Enterprise has dropped her shields. I repeat, hold attack! Do not fire!

[Enterprise flying in space] <<<<<--- HERE!!!

[Enterprise Sickbay]

MCCOY: He'll have to be committed to a total rehabilitation center. Right now he's under sedation, heavy restraints.

SPOCK: I would say his multitronic unit is in approximately the same condition.

KIRK: That's exactly the situation I was hoping for when I forced the M-5 to realize it had committed murder.

(The group walk out of the medical bay to McCoy's office.)

KIRK: Daystrom felt such an act was against the laws of God and man. The computer that carried his engrams also believed it.

The Enterprise establishment shot can be used to indicate the fragmentation of time. It's an old trick that was used throughout the series. We have no idea how long after Wesley's cease-fire order (the ending of the war-games) that Kirk, Spock and McCoy were in Sickbay talking over Daystrom's sleeping body. It could've been 2 hours, 2 days or 2 weeks. But the Enterprise's flying-in-space shot is a sure cue without any spoken words necessary: it says simply "later..."

My theory is that M-5, using Enterprise's scanners at a distance, could not detect survivors aboard the damaged and derelict Excalibur. ("For the World Is Hollow And I Have Touched the Sky", "TNG's "Heart of Glory") So everyone, including the M-5, assumed that without any indication of life signs, all the Excalibur crew had perished.

But after Wesley's cease-fire, it's entirely possible (and makes sense, given the improved humor and a joking Kirk and company) that survivors had been found and rescued from the drifting Excalibur. It would also make sense if some of those survivors were brought aboard the Enterprise to recover the ship's systems so she could return to the space station. (Remember, there's no longer an M-5 to run the ship, only 19 visibly relieved and relaxed Enterprise staff aboard. Excalibur survivors could be helping Scotty in the Engine Room, manning the engines, pulling out M-5's plugs, etc.)
__________________
"The way that you wander is the way that you choose. / The day that you tarry is the day that you lose. / Sunshine or thunder, a man will always wonder / Where the fair wind blows ..."
-- Lyrics, Jeremiah Johnson's theme.
Wingsley is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:50 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.