What happens if someone from the past shows up...

[Ian Keldon]

trekmom wrote:

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What if you can't send them back? Keep in mind that in the "present day" Trek Lit world of approximately 2385ish or so, punishment is on a pretty nice penal colony. Gardens, exercise, fresh air, education and rehabilitation.

Not always. Eddington was basically in an otherwise bare cell on a station somewhere.

[Lonemagpie]

Drago-Kazov wrote:

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What happens if somebody commits crimes in an alternate reality and there are witnesses and video footage?

It wouldn't be a crime in the native reality - but knowing those poncey Starfleet types, they'd all shun whoever did it.

[E-DUB]

By way of analogy, there are circumstances under which American citizens can be prosecuted for behavior abroad which is legal in the host country. The Foriegn Corrupt Practices act (business bribery) and sex tourism come to mind.

So it is likely that trhe Feederation could prosecute a citizen for crimes committed outside its territory.

[RPJOB]

There's also the reverse with the Federation refusing to allow one of it's citizens to be prosecuted for a crime committed on a planet that would not be a crime on a Federation world. (Justice - TNG). Wesley Crusher committed the crime and Picard refused to accept it. If you had a captain of a lesser moral code than Picard they could basically let the crew run wild wherever you liked. Rape, murder, theft? Not according to the captain.

[Timewalker]

Wesley Crusher committed the crime and Picard refused to accept it.

Not quite. Picard refused to accept the sentence. I'm guessing that if the sentence had been for Wesley to spend a day or two doing community service (ie. fixing the flower bed infrastructure, planting flowers, pulling weeds, etc.), that would have been fine.

[RPJOB]

But that's not the penalty that the Edo specified for the crime Wesley committed. When Starfleet sets foot on an alien planet they should be under the laws of that planet. It's not like they were even invited. They simply showed up, beamed down and assumed that things worked the same there as they did in the Federation. The Edo are not human, regardless of appearances. They have their own culture and have the right to employ whatever laws they see fit on their world. The Edo were healthy, happy and apparently quite prosperous. Their system worked for them. By landing on their planet, Starfleet put themselves under the jurisdiction of the Edo. A first contact team is not an embassy. They do not enjoy diplomatic immunity.

[Sandoval]

RPJOB wrote:

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But that's not the penalty that the Edo specified for the crime Wesley committed. When Starfleet sets foot on an alien planet they should be under the laws of that planet. It's not like they were even invited. They simply showed up, beamed down and assumed that things worked the same there as they did in the Federation.

Tough luck. Regardless of whatever local laws are in place a Starfleet captain sitting in the command chair of an orbiting battleship wouldn't, for example let a ten-man away team be executed because they're wearing black in summer should that be deemed necessary by that planet's laws.

There are some universal constants, and crushing (pardon the pun) some flowers doesn't deserve death on whatever world you happen to be visiting.

As much of a prat as Wesley is...

[Sci]

RPJOB wrote:

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But that's not the penalty that the Edo specified for the crime Wesley committed. When Starfleet sets foot on an alien planet they should be under the laws of that planet. It's not like they were even invited. They simply showed up, beamed down and assumed that things worked the same there as they did in the Federation. The Edo are not human, regardless of appearances. They have their own culture and have the right to employ whatever laws they see fit on their world. The Edo were healthy, happy and apparently quite prosperous. Their system worked for them. By landing on their planet, Starfleet put themselves under the jurisdiction of the Edo. A first contact team is not an embassy. They do not enjoy diplomatic immunity.

And yet being tolerant of other cultures should also carry obligations on the part of the Edo -- among them, explaining possible consequences for lawbreaking and not being rigid and inflexible when cultural misunderstandings like the Wesley Crusher incident develop. The Edo were being, frankly, ethnocentric by not allowing for cultural misunderstandings and insisting on their own legal absolutism to apply to people who had not been forward of their laws and did not have the opportunity to negotiate legal agreements about the applicability of those laws towards them.

That's why it wasn't cultural imperialism for Picard to remove Wesley from Edo custody. It would have been such if he had removed Wesley to the Enterprise and then continued to allow Starfleet officers to stay on Rubicon III, and if he had used the power of his ship to enable those officers to do whatever they want and force their will upon the Edo. But he didn't. He took Wesley back aboard the Enterprise, and then he left Rubicon III. The Edo continue to have their own laws, and the Federation is no longer on their turf. That's fair.

[Drago-Kazov]

The Edo continue to have their own laws, and the Federation is no longer on their turf. That's fair.
__________________

Since it was an awfull episode we will never see them again.

[Turtletrekker]

I guess time-travel is one to get past a statute of limitations...

[Christopher]

Turtletrekker wrote:

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I guess time-travel is one to get past a statute of limitations...

I covered that back in post #2 with the following link:

http://lawandthemultiverse.com/2011/...e-limitations/

The statute of limitations is suspended if you deliberately flee from justice. So unless the time travel is accidental -- or unless the legal system you're fleeing from collapses in the interim -- it wouldn't help you escape prosecution.

[RPJOB]

Sci wrote:

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And yet being tolerant of other cultures should also carry obligations on the part of the Edo -- among them, explaining possible consequences for lawbreaking and not being rigid and inflexible when cultural misunderstandings like the Wesley Crusher incident develop. The Edo were being, frankly, ethnocentric by not allowing for cultural misunderstandings and insisting on their own legal absolutism to apply to people who had not been forward of their laws and did not have the opportunity to negotiate legal agreements about the applicability of those laws towards them.

That's why it wasn't cultural imperialism for Picard to remove Wesley from Edo custody. It would have been such if he had removed Wesley to the Enterprise and then continued to allow Starfleet officers to stay on Rubicon III, and if he had used the power of his ship to enable those officers to do whatever they want and force their will upon the Edo. But he didn't. He took Wesley back aboard the Enterprise, and then he left Rubicon III. The Edo continue to have their own laws, and the Federation is no longer on their turf. That's fair.

If a foreign national commits a crime in the United States is it fair then if they simply return to their home country?

Properly, nobody should beam down to a newly contacted planet until matters of laws and regulation are understood. You're putting yourself under those laws the minute you set foot on the planet.

It's not like Wesley was treated any differently than the Edo would have treated one of their own. The Mediators showed up very quickly, suggesting that there's a number of them. Apparently, justice is doled out on a regular basis on this planet. Wesley was treated the same as one of the Edo would have been. No more, no less.

Starfleet talks a good game about respecting the rights of other cultures but they sure like doing an end run around them when it's not convient.

[Drago-Kazov]

Killing Wesley then and there would had been great.

[Sci]

RPJOB wrote:

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If a foreign national commits a crime in the United States is it fair then if they simply return to their home country?

If that foreign national is a citizen of a nation that had never contacted the United States before and if he had in no way been warned about what some of the laws of the U.S. were, and he found himself doing something he thought harmless which is common or acceptable in his culture? And if his crime is one which does not violate anyone else's rights under U.S. law?

Then yes. It would be unjust and unfair for the United States government to prosecute a foreign national from a newly-contacted culture, especially if the U.S. government had never explained its laws to the representatives of this new culture.

[RPJOB]

Sorry but no. When you enter a foreign country (or set foot on a newly contacted planet) it is your responsibility to be aware of what the local laws are. As they say, ignorance of the law is no excuse. Now, your newly arrived status might be seen as an extenuating circumstance and perhaps allow for a lesser punishment but it's not a carte blanche. That would not apply in Wesleys case because death was the only penalty provided for.

Their planet, their rules. Perhaps Starfleet should make first contact on board their ships until the legal details are known. This would only apply to races that are already aware of other intelligent life. For a true First Contact, Starfleet should have dedicated first contact specialists and leave the kids behind for a while.