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Old October 22 2012, 02:13 PM   #31
Deks
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Re: Power of the Federation

But we aren't solely talking about weapons here.
These technologies obviously can be used in a different capacity.
We never really saw this directly too often in Trek, and I find it a bit... stupid.
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Old October 22 2012, 08:50 PM   #32
Nightdiamond
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Re: Power of the Federation

I had a theory on why the Dominion could build ships faster than the Federation. The Jem Hadar are building the ships.

It's part automated, part labor.

They don't need sleep or food, so they are available at all hours of the time to build ships. Since Jem Hadar can be replaced easily in a matter of days, the ship building doesn't stop.

True, in the 24th century automated factories could exist, but there has to be a lot manual labor involved in assembling these ships.

Maybe the Federation kept building their ships the same old way, and was completely caught off guard when they came across the Dominion's way of building ships.
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Old October 22 2012, 08:54 PM   #33
Timo
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Re: Power of the Federation

The inability to build starships to meet the demand, any demand, is built into the very structure of Trek drama. Otherwise how could Starfleet always be so starved of ships that the heroes arrive at or after the nick of time, when just adding a thousand ships would make the colonies safe?

They don't need sleep or food
To be accurate, we don't really know that. We know the White keeps them going, possibly for days at an end, and we know they refuse to sleep or eat during a mission. But they do have digestive systems, and they do seek and consume food in "Hippocratic Oath".

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Old October 22 2012, 09:52 PM   #34
USS Triumphant
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Re: Power of the Federation

You know, I just got done ranting in another thread about how I like for Trek to make sense, BUT, there IS a certain amount of handwaving, ala the old Marvel No-Prizes, that has to be done with some of this stuff.

Because really if you get down to it, with advanced AIs that are indistinguishable from living beings on the holodeck, and speed of light drives and weapons like phasers, any ship(s) to ship(s) battle would come down to who made the decision to engage in combat first, and then whose computers, weapons, and defenses were faster. The organics on board, especially if they weren't the aggressors, might only know that something happened because the computer reports that it did, or because they are captured or in a broken ship waiting to be captured, killed, rescued, or die when they run out of breathable atmo. The reason I say that is because while WE might not automate our systems to attack, some species out of all of those out there would, and then the rest would have no choice but to automate response systems, and maybe even to automate ATTACK systems triggered by sensor recognition of a hostile above a certain percentage of accuracy.

So, obviously there's some reason that isn't true that we haven't been told, and obviously there's a reason for some of the rest of this that we just haven't been told, too.
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Old October 22 2012, 10:29 PM   #35
Nightdiamond
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Re: Power of the Federation

Timo wrote: View Post
The inability to build starships to meet the demand, any demand, is built into the very structure of Trek drama. Otherwise how could Starfleet always be so starved of ships that the heroes arrive at or after the nick of time, when just adding a thousand ships would make the colonies safe?

They don't need sleep or food
To be accurate, we don't really know that. We know the White keeps them going, possibly for days at an end, and we know they refuse to sleep or eat during a mission. But they do have digestive systems, and they do seek and consume food in "Hippocratic Oath".

Timo Saloniemi
In "To The Death" Dax suggest to a Jem Hadar to get some sleep, and he replies they don't sleep, and don't eat either.

It's the White that's most likely responsible for it, but then again, they're also genetically engineered too (the sleep part).

I can easily see these guys as the ones building the ships really fast for the Dominion.

Seems like DS9 wanted to establish that the Federation couldn't keep up with the Dominion--for dramatic effect.

In that case you can see the difference with the Klingons ...they were fighting longer than anyone, and yet by the time of the Dominion war they still had enough fleets of ships to fight the Dominion.

I think the Klingons believed in stockpiling huge amounts of ships, so they were able to last through the Cardassian war, then the Federation war, then the pre Dominion war.

However they got worn down by the time the war actually started.

Last edited by Nightdiamond; October 22 2012 at 10:41 PM.
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Old October 22 2012, 11:01 PM   #36
John Mason
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Re: Power of the Federation

If the federation be the U.S,
Then who be the Borg?
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Old October 22 2012, 11:05 PM   #37
Dream
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Re: Power of the Federation

John Mason wrote: View Post
If the federation be the U.S,
Then who be the Borg?
They are alien invaders from another planet.
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Old October 22 2012, 11:13 PM   #38
USS Triumphant
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Re: Power of the Federation

John Mason wrote: View Post
If the federation be the U.S,
Then who be the Borg?
The Internet.
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Old October 22 2012, 11:16 PM   #39
John Mason
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Re: Power of the Federation

The Scrin????
That Tesla ha ha ha oh lordy, troubles so hard.....
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Old October 22 2012, 11:16 PM   #40
John Mason
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Re: Power of the Federation

oh no internet 2????
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Old October 23 2012, 05:59 AM   #41
Ian Keldon
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Re: Power of the Federation

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
Yet for some reason, the Romulans are definitely considered a threat by the Federation in TNG.

They feared going to war with the Romulans.
The Romulans had been in isolation for decades, perhaps even the better part of a century. Then they show up with ships over twice the size of the Federation's best and biggest, cloak equipped at that, and powered by a new type of power generation of great potential. Couple that with the traditional Romulan strategy of sneak and strike, and I'd be afraid of going to war with them myself if I were the Federation. As Picard said once while reviewing sensor data from a sector of the Neutral Zone "There could be an entire fleet out there and we can't even see them".

The old shibboleth about "no warp Romulans" is a misinterpretation of Scotty's line about "simple impulse", which referred to the ship's power source, not a lack of FTL capability.

Impulse power is basically fusion power. All of the statements in Balance of Terror where the Romulans are obsessing about power, about fuel, about "reserves" makes perfect sense if fusion power is powering their engines as well as their "big gun", the plasma-implosion torpedo.
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Old October 23 2012, 06:49 AM   #42
Timo
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Re: Power of the Federation

The old shibboleth about "no warp Romulans" is a misinterpretation of Scotty's line about "simple impulse", which referred to the ship's power source, not a lack of FTL capability.
...And regardless of whether that single ship had FTL or not, the Romulan Star Empire clearly knew the secret of FTL flight at that point. It actually sounds like a bigger feat to make a cloud of plasma pursue the enemy at high warp than to make a solid starship do the same!

any ship(s) to ship(s) battle would come down to who made the decision to engage in combat first, and then whose computers, weapons, and defenses were faster.
But only if the weapons were sufficiently destructive. Yet it appears that it takes several minutes to do any serious harm to the enemy even if one is firing constantly and aggressively - shields prevent lightning-fast solutions to battles. There's plenty of time for the (hu)man(oid) in the loop to ponder how to react, or even whether to react; many threats can simply be ignored.

In "To The Death" Dax suggest to a Jem Hadar to get some sleep, and he replies they don't sleep, and don't eat either.
Yet we have seen them eat. So they might just be brave and stoic about not sleeping, either. Perhaps the thing about no Jem'Hadar women is a lie, too?

Timo Saloniemi
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Old October 23 2012, 07:50 PM   #43
Deks
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Re: Power of the Federation

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
I had a theory on why the Dominion could build ships faster than the Federation. The Jem Hadar are building the ships.

It's part automated, part labor.

They don't need sleep or food, so they are available at all hours of the time to build ships. Since Jem Hadar can be replaced easily in a matter of days, the ship building doesn't stop.

True, in the 24th century automated factories could exist, but there has to be a lot manual labor involved in assembling these ships.

Maybe the Federation kept building their ships the same old way, and was completely caught off guard when they came across the Dominion's way of building ships.
That's certainly how construction 'appeared' in Trek, but it simply doesn't make any sense.
A lot of construction work today in real-life can be easily automated (we won't talk about the financial ramifications though because this is a pure resource/technological thing separate from 'money' and cost).
Federation technology should be far beyond what we can do.

As for the Jem'Hadaar making the ships... doesn't make sense.
While I will accept the notion that 'some' things may require a humanoid interaction, they wouldn't involve actual building because they would be well beyond the level of tech necessary to do this.
Chalk it up to the writers dumbing everything down intentionally for the sake of drama - or because they simply didn't know any better (both apply to how they handled Trek on numerous occasions).
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Old October 23 2012, 10:40 PM   #44
Nightdiamond
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Re: Power of the Federation

The thing is, in the show the Federation say the Dominion can build fleets faster than they could destroy them.

So why can't the Feds, Klingons, or Cardassians do the same thing?

I don't know if the show says anything about automated shipyards, though, and that's the problem.

Just looking at Enterprise's construction in "Booby Trap" it looks too much like they needed manual labor to put the Enterprise together.

When you put together the fact that the Jem Hadar don't sleep, don't need to relax, have no diversions--and they are available to work at all hours of the time/day--

--it makes a lot of sense that they could be the ones building the ships a much faster rate and output.

Just a theory I had to come with, because yeah, Trek dumbed down a lot of stuff, with no explanation.
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Old October 24 2012, 01:06 AM   #45
Arpy
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Re: Power of the Federation

When the Klingons were less meat-headed I thought of them as on par with the Federation but ultimately a little weaker. Especially when you brought in the scientists.

The Romulans, by the 24th century, seemed to be a third superpower themselves but still less powerful than the Klingons.

The Cardassians at first were problematic but ultimately nonthreatening - the Galor Class Trager Macet commanded was dealt with easily enough. Later they seemed to be up there under the Romulans, but overall I see them as a nation the Federation would beat but at considerable cost - unlike the Klingons who they'd also beat but at a devastating cost.

Both the Romulans and the Klingons have the benefit of being much older nations which I think explains how they're still competitive with the Federation - they've had more time to conquer and invent. The Klingons also have the benefit of alien tech early on via the Hur'q. Still, given the UFP is already ahead of them, I see the gap only widening the further ahead in the future you go. Cooperation, science, and altruism are more efficient and competitive than force, threat, and anger.

Last edited by Arpy; October 24 2012 at 09:21 PM. Reason: replaced is with are
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