TOS Enterprise WIP

[blssdwlf]

Robert Comsol wrote:

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Then there is the issue with the Auxilary Control Room from "Doomsday Machine" which "I, Mudd" locates on (engineering) deck 8. The forward strut structure of the Auxilary Control Room seems to correspond rather well with the upper bow of the engineering hull: http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...linghd0428.jpg

Actually, we do not know that Deck 8 is in the Engineering Hull.
We just know in "I, Mudd" that the Aux Control Room is on Deck 8.

As to the Aux Control Room, this is what I see when I look at it. The forward bulkhead is vertical. The strut has a curve to it but it doesn't give any indication to what is beyond the bulkhead.

Robert Comsol wrote:

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It appears the landing party arrives on (engineering) deck 8 in "Doomsday Machine" from where Scotty and his technicians descend to the upper level of the engineering section: http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...hinehd0207.jpg

Where there's a turbo lift door in "Journey to Babel" next to the main door to engineering section there's just a corridor (because that high up there's no more running space for lateral turbo lifts). Also notice that there are pipes and cables hanging from the ceiling. In my view this is usually (in Star Trek) the result of weapon fire impact on the outer surface of a vessel and the space just below.

Good observation that they went down a ladder to check out engineering.

Some items to consider:

1. We do not know exactly where the beam in point is because:
   1. It is not identified.
   2. When Scotty and co descend down the ladder, we do not know what intervening decks they passed through to appear in the engineering room's upper level. They do not exit from same type of ladder they descend in.
   3. When Kirk and McCoy goes toward the camera we do not know where that part of the hallway leads to or what it looks like.
   4. When Kirk and co decide to go look for the Aux Control Room, they start back again at the beam in point and move to the hallway on the left (or exit, stage left). We again do not know what intervening hallways, turns, or even deck changes occur before they reach the Auxiliary Control Room.
2. We can assume that the beam in point is somewhere:
   1. Above the Engine Room.
   2. Possibly between the Auxiliary Control Room and Engine Room
3. Where is the Auxiliary Control Room?
   1. "The Doomsday Machine" - ambiguous as we don't know what exact path was taken, the starting location and the end location.
   2. "I, Mudd" - ambiguous as we know it is on Deck 8 but do not know what is around it. Norman's pass down the circular hallway may or may not have been on Deck 8 as we do not know what path he took after he walked by McCoy and Spock. Also, this room looks different than the one seen in "And the Children Shall Lead".
   3. "And the Children Shall Lead" - room similar to "The Doomsday Machine". Ambiguous location. Hallway greeble visible from open Aux Control Room door is not present where Kirk and Spock later end up and Chekov goes to arrest them. We again do not know what intervening paths were taken between exiting the turbolift and also when leaving the Aux Control Room to be arrested by Chekov.
   4. "The Way to Eden" - room similar to "The Doomsday Machine". We get to see more of the hallway outside the room and it looks like a tight U-shape. Unknown location.
   5. "The Changeling" - room similar to "The Doomsday Machine". We do not know what is around it due to cuts between characters leaving the room and when they show up in a different corridor.

At best we know that Auxiliary Control is on Deck 8 but where exactly we do not know. Also, the room underwent a few cosmetic changes.

[Robert Comsol]

blssdwlf wrote:

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"Actually, we do not know that Deck 8 is in the Engineering Hull.
We just know in "I, Mudd" that the Aux Control Room is on Deck 8."

Fair enough. But then please forgive my inevitable question where you are going to put it in your plans / cutaway?

blssdwlf wrote:

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"Some items to consider: ... When Scotty and co descend down the ladder, we do not know what intervening decks they passed through to appear in the engineering room's upper level. They do not exit from same type of ladder they descend in."

As it appears the turbolifts on the Constellation don't work, therefore the landing party has to use ladders instead. But Scotty does exit from the same type of ladder when he reappears: They climb down http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...hinehd0206.jpg and Scotty surfaces later in the exact same section: http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...hinehd0238.jpg

Since the bridge of the Constellation has been destroyed and there is severe structural damage to the saucer hull (both TOS and TOS-R) I'd find it rather difficult to imagine that what we see here takes place in the saucer. This would imply that Scotty and party descend from deck 5 to the upper level of the engine room, but Scotty has to come back up to deck 5 - only to climb down again the next minute to deck 8 where they finally arrive at the Auxilary Control Room which seemed to be a place they needed to go anyway to find out what happened: http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...hinehd0253.jpg

Bob

[Albertese]

Robert Comsol wrote:

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Yes, there's no way decks 12 or 14 as seen in Season One could ever fit inside the neck. It's another one of those idiotic things where fans take Franz Joseph as canon and consider the information from the actual episodes erroneous.

...

Bob

Here's what I don't get: you place so much stock in The Making of Star Trek yet are so dismissive of Franz Joseph. You do know that TMoST was a primary reference for him as he laid out his take on the E? Compare the notes in TMoST to his Booklet of General Plans and there is a very high degree of correlation.

--Alex

[TIN_MAN]

^^ Plus, in this particular example regarding decks 12 or 14, I would hardly characterize it as "idiotic" for fans of FJ to accept his take as consistent with cann, since it is. Deck 5 is given as the location of Kirks quarters in at least 2 -maybe three- episodes and this is consistent with TMoST which, by the way, also numbers the decks in such a way as to put decks 12 or 14 in the neck, and was -as pointed out above -FJ's primary source!

And as you (Bob) pointed out yourself, decks 12 or 14 cannot fit in the neck, so either these deck references -or the visual cues, make canon inconsistent with itself here regarding the location of Kirk’s quarters, so I don't think it's to much of a stretch to choose to go with the deck 5 location as the correct one and regard the other reference as a mistake, which it is.

That being said, I realize the Thermionic approach can be fun and challenging and I would certainly never characterize it as “Idiotic”, but some of the mental contortions people go to in order to rationalize some of this stuff is no less so than anything FJ came up with. Not everyone is a Canonista or a Thermion, but whether one is or not, it’s all good, we’re all geeks here and at the end of the day it’s all fiction anyway.

[Robert Comsol]

Albertese wrote:

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"Here's what I don't get: you place so much stock in The Making of Star Trek yet are so dismissive of Franz Joseph. You do know that TMoST was a primary reference for him as he laid out his take on the E? Compare the notes in TMoST to his Booklet of General Plans and there is a very high degree of correlation."

Indeed I do place much stock in The Making of Star Trek (BTW, great interpretation you did with "What Would Brandon Do?"!) and especially as counsel to solve an enigma of the actual TOS footage. After all it reveals the original creators' intentions and is canon to me unless overruled by visual evidence / changed premise in TOS stating something differently.

I'd even go further: TMoST was the only reference for FJ (notice how he copied the wrongly cut phaser type 2 from TMoST for the TM). There were many episodes where we saw the actual rank stripes of commodores but FJ obviously didn't or just didn't care about accuracy.

Fact: The Making states that saucer separation from the engineering hull was planned as a regular event. Therefore the saucer hull and the engineering hull are two separate identities. The Making states that the saucer has eleven decks and the engineering hull has 16. It states nowwhere that the numbering of the saucer continues deck level-wise in the neck section of the engineering hull.
Had Franz Joseph noted down some facts while occasionally watching a Star Trek episode with his daughter (he was no fan of Star Trek and preferred "Lost in Space") he might have noticed that early on in the show there are large spaces on decks 12 and 14 and that these couldn't possibly be in the neck section of the engineering hull - as he suggested.

Fact: The Making had a blueprint of the complete soundstage (Season Two and Three version). No matter how little FJ watched Star Trek, he had to know this was the essence of what should reflect in his blueprints. Still he decided to ignore this all together and come up with deck plans that do not reflect what we have seen to be aboard the Enterprise (with the exception of the bridge).

Sorry, I'd guess that 85% of the average fans have a knowledge about Star Trek and the Enterprise that is far superior to any knowlege FJ ever had and therefore the status of reference on his behalf is totally misplaced. I just revisited all the stuff he placed behind the sensor dish in the engineering hull (where does the sensor antenna connect to? A swimming pool?!?!?).

If I had the chance I would send Peter Chung's engineering designs back in time to replace the stuff FJ did.

Bob

[Robert Comsol]

TIN_MAN wrote:

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"Plus, in this particular example regarding decks 12 or 14, I would hardly characterize it as "idiotic" for fans of FJ to accept his take as consistent with cann, since it is. Deck 5 is given as the location of Kirks quarters in at least 2 -maybe three- episodes and this is consistent with TMoST which, by the way, also numbers the decks in such a way as to put decks 12 or 14 in the neck, and was -as pointed out above -FJ's primary source!"

I reread the entire Making of Star Trek recently and the only deck numbering it provided was for the saucer hull. It merely states the the engineering hull has 16 decks (which obviously would include the neck) but other than that it's rather vague.

TIN_MAN wrote:

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"And as you (Bob) pointed out yourself, decks 12 or 14 cannot fit in the neck, so either these deck references -or the visual cues, make canon inconsistent with itself here regarding the location of Kirk’s quarters, so I don't think it's too much of a stretch to choose to go with the deck 5 location as the correct one and regard the other reference as a mistake, which it is."

I disagree. As we can clearly see between "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and "The Corbomite Maneuver" there has been a considerable amount of transformation, upgrades etc. in the ship's exterior and interior design and we do not know at what point in time the transformation work is finished. It's at this time Kirk's quarters (with what seem to be windows) are currently located on deck 12 in "Mudd's Women" and "The Enemy Within". In the ongoing season the "windows" are covered by these panels and we are seeing less of the exterior of Kirk's quarters (finally on deck 5 after the renovation work is finally done?)

TIN_MAN wrote:

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"That being said, I realize the Thermionic approach can be fun and challenging and I would certainly never characterize it as “Idiotic”, but some of the mental contortions people go to in order to rationalize some of this stuff is no less so than anything FJ came up with. Not everyone is a Canonista or a Thermion, but whether one is or not, it’s all good, we’re all geeks here and at the end of the day it’s all fiction anyway."

Nicely said I will, of course, withdraw my "idiotic" remark the moment the same people - that suggest to place the visible corridors and rooms from the aforementioned episodes inside the neck - also suggest a length of the TOS Enterprise of 2,000' and finally large enough to hold a "fleet of airliners".

Please, let's consider a common sense approach and a Franz Joseph detox. Instantly, there are more solutions than problems.

Bob

[TIN_MAN]

Disclaimer, I typed this while Bob was typing his post above, so it may not all be relevant now since he's already addressed some of the issues.

I'd even go further: TMoST was the only reference for FJ (notice how he copied the wrongly cut phaser type 2 from TMoST for the TM). There were many episodes where we saw the actual rank stripes of commodores but FJ obviously didn't or just didn't care about accuracy.

Well, FWIW he did have slides and plastic models, in addition to reruns of the show itself.

As for the phaser, it was definitely his biggest mistake in the tech manual.
As for rank stripes, I seem to recall an interview where his daughter said he was trying to make the higher rank designation more self-consistent with the lower rank progression, so yes, he apparently didn't care?

Fact: The Making states that saucer separation from the engineering hull was planned as a regular event. Therefore the saucer hull and the engineering hull are two separate identities. The Making states that the saucer has eleven decks and the engineering hull has 16. It states nowhere that the numbering of the saucer continues deck level-wise in the neck section of the engineering hull.

What do you mean by "regular event"? It certainly wasn't "routine detachable" like the TNG. I assume you mean "standard emergency procedure"?

As for the deck numbering, neither is it stated in TMoST that the numbering of the saucer doesn't continue in the neck section of the engineering hull, just because the engineering hull acts as a lifeboat in emergency saucer sep. is no reason to label the decks differently IMHO.

Had Franz Joseph noted down some facts while occasionally watching a Star Trek episode with his daughter (he was no fan of Star Trek and preferred "Lost in Space") he might have noticed that early on in the show there are large spaces on decks 12 and 14 and that these couldn't possibly be in the neck section of the engineering hull.

What makes you think he didn't notice, and just chalked up the deck references to a production mistake, since they disagree with other repeated references in the show as well as TMoST, which taking the show as a whole, is ultimately what it is -a mistake.

Fact: The Making had a blueprint of the complete soundstage (Season Two and Three version). No matter how little FJ watched Star Trek, he had to know this was the essence of what should reflect in his blueprints. Still he decided to ignore this all together and come up with deck plans that do not reflect what we have seen to be aboard the Enterprise (with the exception of the bridge). Had he actually watched some episodes, he would have noticed that there is no photon torpedo launcher in the teardrop bow on the upper side.

Well, regarding the blueprint of the soundstage, if you look at his deck seven deck plan you'll see he did not "ignore it all together " but did indeed "reflect the essence" of the soundstage blueprint in his layout, it being essentially an "exploded" or expanded view of the soundstage blueprint, he just spread everything out and filled in the areas between with other facilities.

As for there being no photon torpedo launcher in the teardrop bow, my response is, how would he know this from watching the show? But more to the point, how do you know? What we do know however, from both TMoST and the animated series is that there is a phaser bank there, and since we're freely interpreting here, I choose to see the phasers and photon torpedoes in TOS as essentially the same device, with just minor resetting, (proximity blast phasers, anyone) this solves a multitude of discrepancies.

Sorry, I'd guess that 85% of the average fans have knowledge about Star Trek and the Enterprise that is far superior to any knowledge FJ ever had and therefore the status of reference on his behalf is totally misplaced. I just revisited all the stuff he placed behind the sensor dish in the engineering hull (where does the sensor antenna connect to? A swimming pool?!?!?).

Well, considering that we have access to resources and recording technology that he didn't have, it's not surprising that we have more knowledge than he did.

As for the stuff behind the sensor dish, I agree. This is FJ's biggest error of judgment, and my biggest issue with his "Booklet of General Plans', there should have been some sensor/deflector machinery back there, as Jefferies hinted at in his cross section in TMoST.

[blssdwlf]

Robert Comsol wrote:

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Fair enough. But then please forgive my inevitable question where you are going to put it in your plans / cutaway?

At this time, I do not have a firm location. There are lots of rooms to be built out and when I fit it all together, I'll post it up

Robert Comsol wrote:

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As it appears the turbolifts on the Constellation don't work, therefore the landing party has to use ladders instead. But Scotty does exit from the same type of ladder when he reappears: They climb down http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...hinehd0206.jpg and Scotty surfaces later in the exact same section: http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...hinehd0238.jpg

You correctly noticed that he uses the ladder at the beam-in point to go to and return from engineering. What I'm saying is that when Scotty uses the ladder to go to engineering, he appears in engineering but the ladder is no where in sight. This tells me that we do not know how far the ladder took them down and what additional corridors, ladders, and crawlspaces they took to get to the engine room. Without that knowledge, we do not know where the beam-in point is.

Robert Comsol wrote:

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Since the bridge of the Constellation has been destroyed and there is severe structural damage to the saucer hull (both TOS and TOS-R) I'd find it rather difficult to imagine that what we see here takes place in the saucer. This would imply that Scotty and party descend from deck 5 to the upper level of the engine room, but Scotty has to come back up to deck 5 - only to climb down again the next minute to deck 8 where they finally arrive at the Auxilary Control Room which seemed to be a place they needed to go anyway to find out what happened: http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...hinehd0253.jpg

You may find that hard to believe, but that appears to be exactly what happened. Visually, only the areas of the primary hull near the rims were damaged and exposed to space. The "entire bridge" was damaged but having the "core" areas of the primary hull intact is very reasonable given the evidence. Remember in the dialogue going to "Auxiliary Control" was Scotty's idea and it appeared to be an afterthought.

[blssdwlf]

@ALL

Just a friendly reminder that this project is about what's on screen. Not what is written in TMOST or in FJ's work or other printed material.

With that being said, I own FJ's Tech Manual and his blueprints and I respect him for being the first one to try and blueprint out the Enterprise (AFAIK). He may not have got it screen accurate but he is part of what inspired me to do this project and we can see from Havoc92's work that good stuff can come of it.

I also own TMOST and a bunch of other Trek materials too and enjoy reading them.

But that isn't what this project is about so even though I (and we) can gain insight from these printed materials, if there isn't any evidence to back it up on screen then I'm likely not going to use it for the project.

Now, back to the modeling

[Robert Comsol]

TIN_MAN wrote:

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"What do you mean by "regular event"? It certainly wasn't "routine detachable" like the TNG. I assume you mean "standard emergency procedure"?

As for the deck numbering, neither is it stated in TMoST that the numbering of the saucer doesn't continue in the neck section of the engineering hull, just because the engineering hull acts as a lifeboat in emergency saucer sep. is no reason to label the decks differently IMHO."

No, I mean "routine detachable". TMoST explicitly states that there are crew quarters for the engineering personnel of the star-drive (aka warp drive) section in case the saucer has gone elsewhere. There is no need for crew quarters if the only saucer separation is to abandon and disconnect the engineering hull. TMoST is also specific that the saucer hull contains all the facilities to enable the saucer to function as a lifeboat. There is no suggestion that the engineering hull should serve as a lifeboat, too. After all, most of us expect the onboard elements that could destroy the ship (and make a saucer separation inevitable) to be located in the engineering hull or attached to it.

That the creators envisioned 16 engineering decks is a clear hint, IMHO, that this includes the decks in the neck. If you were to assign deck levels in the neck to the saucer hull, the remaining 16 decks for the engineering hull would have a much lower ceiling than seen in TOS.

Bob

[blssdwlf]

@Robert Comsol and Tin_Man - TMOST isn't applicable for this project. The decks are numbered the way they are for this project to account for dialogue in the series. Whether the engineering hull was meant to operate independently or not will just depend on how the episodes play out.

[Mytran]

Returning to the thread-specific matter of a WWTTD-Enterprise, I notice that you've laid out your decks on a 947' long vessel. Does this mean you've revised your earlier estimate of a slightly larger Enterprise? (as indicated by the scaled up size of the shuttlebay set)

[blssdwlf]

@Mytran - Not yet. I posted up the decks so Bob could get an idea on where I considered Deck 12 but the 947' isn't locked yet.

[blssdwlf]

@Mytran - I don't have a graphic ready yet, but my current scaling based on the flight deck shot from "The Galileo Seven" puts the TOS Enterprise at about 349m or 1,145'. I was kind of wondering if it would end up being larger than a 355m TMP Enterprise but I guess not

At the going rate, a 947' and 1,145' project at the same time might be interesting to see how things would need to be re-arranged on the smaller version.

[Robert Comsol]

I'm currently wondering about this beautiful long rectangular corridor from "Where No Man Has Gone Before" which looks to be predestined for the engineering hull: http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...ehdalt0079.jpg

Does anybody know where to find stage plans of this original pilot set?

It's quite unique: The wall with the transparent panel and door is actually the "back door" of our regular transporter but in WNM they used it as the main entry door.

I've seen three or four different uses of this corridor:
- after the Valiant flight recorder has beamed onboard, Kirk and Spock exit and move towards the angled in section of the corridor (original version)
- after the opening credits we see another shot of a now different corridor, the "Transporter" label above the door has been removed (original version) not available from Trekcore
- Mitchell "stalks" Yeoman and is walking towards the other end where a couple of stairs led to a lower part of the deck (alternate version)
- Sulu and Dr. Boyce are passing through the corridor the same direction Kirk and Spock took (alternate version)

I should add this to my "wish list" next to Auxilary Control (and I'm also a little confused by the architecture of the Herbarium from Season Three ).

Bob