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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old October 12 2012, 12:20 AM   #31
NKemp3
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Re: FC plothole? Why didn't the Borg create the vortex in the Delta Q?

Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
All of the TNG movies are incredibly stupid. Don't waste time trying to make sense of them.

This.
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Old October 12 2012, 01:20 AM   #32
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Re: FC plothole? Why didn't the Borg create the vortex in the Delta Q?

There are, of course, other reasons why the Borg might send only one cube at a time.
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Old October 12 2012, 03:01 PM   #33
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Re: FC plothole? Why didn't the Borg create the vortex in the Delta Q?

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I've never brought anything online....
Neither had I until 2 years ago. But now I do, I can't imagine going back to how things were. I have all the Trek novels (among many many other things) I wanted for years but weren't available locally. Most of the older books I got used, for the price of shipping only. I got several DVD sets far cheaper than in-store prices, and a few from eBay that were an absolute steal (like a mint condition complete 5-season set of Stargate Atlantis DVDs, for the price of a single season new in stores)

Setting up a Paypal account and associating a credit or debit card is easy, so is setting up an Amazon account. Take the plunge!
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Old October 12 2012, 03:41 PM   #34
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Re: FC plothole? Why didn't the Borg create the vortex in the Delta Q?

NKemp3 wrote: View Post
The Borg at war? The Borg don't appear to go to war.
Not the formal political institution, no, but of course there must be many civilizations in the galaxy that are advanced enough to fight against their encroachment in the same way that the Federation has. So call it armed resistance if you like, but it's still an obstacle they need to devote resources to overcome. Given the sheer immensity of their territory, there could be thousands of civilizations resisting them that are equal or superior to the Federation's level of technology, putting an ongoing and extensive drain on their resources.

The Borg, based on what we know, overwhelms its targets almost immediately.
Exactly. Based on what we know. What we know is biased toward the Federation's experiences. The Federation is only the tiniest fraction of an unimaginably vast galaxy. The galaxy has 400 billion stars; let's estimate there's an average of, ohh, 5 planets per star, so that's 2 trillion planets. According to ENT, one out of every 43,000 planets in the Trek galaxy hosts intelligent life, so that works out to about 47 million intelligent species across the galaxy. Say the Borg have already assimilated maybe 10 percent of the galaxy, and you've still got some 42 million different species. The Federation only represents less than 200 species. So what we see in aired Star Trek is not even remotely close to a comprehensive survey of the galaxy; it barely scratches the surface. We have to use our imagination and judgment and extrapolate beyond what we see. We do know that the Federation has encountered many races equalling or surpassing its technology, so there must be many, many more across the galaxy. It's logical, then, to conclude that many races are fighting against Borg expansion at any given time, and that at least a fair percentage of them are powerful enough to hold the Borg at bay at least for a while.


Outside of Species 8472 (or whatever is called) and perhaps the Dominion I can't envision any protracted conflicts involving the Borg against another foe if it decided to use a handful of cubes.
What about the Voth? Their territory is right next to Borg space and their technology easily matches the Borg. And surely a race like, say, the Metrons would have little difficulty dealing with them. And of course, see the numbers above. The total number of races we've seen in Trek add up to maybe a few thousandths of a percent of the galaxy as a whole. If we've seen, say, a dozen races able to hold the Borg at bay, then galaxy-wide there must be more like a million on the same level. And Borg territory is such a significant percentage of the galaxy that their frontier must intersect with at least a few hundred of those races, probably more like thousands.


What's more I thought the Borg were smart; I thought they adapted. They lost to the Federation once when sending one cube in the Federation's direction so what did they do the second time they decided to target Earth?
I already said. Because the Federation was not their sole priority. Just because our perspective as TV viewers is focused on the Federation, that doesn't mean that everything in the entire galaxy revolves around the Federation. There must be a ton of stuff going on elsewhere that has nothing to do with it. The Borg have plenty of other stuff to deal with, and the Federation was just one more remote contact out of, no doubt, thousands at any given time. From our perspective, the UFP/Borg interaction was worldshaking, but from the Borg's perspective, it was just another routine operation, one of many they were dealing with at any given time.


You don't have to be a standout in math to realize that the Borg could probably afford to send a few more cubes in the First Contact film. The Borg sent ten times that much simply to take on Voyager and its crew.
Geography helps too. Voyager was actually in the Borg's home territory at the time, so naturally there were a lot more cubes available close at hand. The Federation is way on the opposite end of the galaxy from Borg space, where their resources are spread far more thinly.


And what does distance have to do with anything? The Borg are all about conquering other races and other societies, adding the conquered's technology to their own collection. By definition the Borg live to seek out new worlds and overtake them. That means lots and lots and lots of travelling. Distance isn't an issue but conquest is a priority...which makes any distance tey have to travel worthwhile.
See above. Yes, the Borg are trying to conquer a lot of territories at once -- but given how huge their established core territory is, the majority of the species resisting them at any given time would be concentrated on their main border, so that's where the majority of their resources and attention would have to be concentrated. The Federation was just one target out of thousands.
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Old October 12 2012, 04:09 PM   #35
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Re: FC plothole? Why didn't the Borg create the vortex in the Delta Q?

A few hipshots:

- The Borg having time travel tech in 2373 might not matter, if it's time travel technology from the future and not being shared with the Collective of 2373 for reasons of temporal hygiene. That is, perhaps the Queen's troupe is just passing by, timewise.

- We never really learned what the Borg intended to do in ST:FC, unlike in "BoBW" where Locutus claims he wants to be escorted to Earth so that this world can be assimilated. And we never had a reason to think Locutus was being forthright in the episode anyway. So there's little reason to evaluate the Borg performance in ST:FC in terms of planetary assimilation success or failure. All we know of their goals is speculation by Picard.

- Okay, so Picard is in the loop somehow (nanites still in his blood, probably, giving him wi-fi to the Collective). But he isn't so much in the loop that he would learn about the interplexing beacon thing without first confiscating some Borg innards. So his speculation doesn't really count for all that much. Perhaps he was being led on a leash in the first place by being allowed to reveal the weakness in the Cube - thus convincing him that he had triumphed and the Sphere was but a desperation measure or a Plan B.

- The Borg never shy away from battle. They could have flown directly to Earth in "BoBW" already, but for some reason decided to stop not only at Wolf 359 but also at Saturn, Jupiter and Mars, fighting separate battles there before entering Earth orbit. So avoiding the battle in ST:FC would probably not occur to them - why not gain all the information there is to be gained from fighting Starfleet?

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Old October 19 2012, 01:31 AM   #36
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Re: FC plothole? Why didn't the Borg create the vortex in the Delta Q?

Do we know for sure that they stopped at Wolf 359 to attack the fleet or if the fleet engaged them first (highly likely), causing the Borg to take care of the situation?

As far as Mars is concerned, I'm more on the side of seeing that not as an engagement, but more the Borg doing a test of their fire control system. They stopped to fight there the same way I stop when I step on an ant walking down the street.
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Old October 19 2012, 04:59 PM   #37
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Re: FC plothole? Why didn't the Borg create the vortex in the Delta Q?

^ I thought that in Trek you have to drop out of warp outside the Sol due to it being too dangerous not to do so?
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Old October 19 2012, 05:11 PM   #38
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Re: FC plothole? Why didn't the Borg create the vortex in the Delta Q?

Generally it's considered risky to travel at warp speed within any star system. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that it's not best practice.
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Old October 19 2012, 07:58 PM   #39
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Re: FC plothole? Why didn't the Borg create the vortex in the Delta Q?

DonIago wrote: View Post
Generally it's considered risky to travel at warp speed within any star system. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that it's not best practice.
It is possible that both the cube and Enterprise were traveling at low warp, say warp 2, in all those scenes, except the Jupiter Defense Parmiter scene.
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Old October 19 2012, 11:51 PM   #40
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Re: FC plothole? Why didn't the Borg create the vortex in the Delta Q?

The Enterprise went to warp inside solar systems all the time.

I always figured that it was dangerous to go to warp inside a solar system if your engines hadn't been balanced. That's what caused the trouble in STIMP.
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Old October 20 2012, 12:21 AM   #41
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Re: FC plothole? Why didn't the Borg create the vortex in the Delta Q?

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I always figured that it was dangerous to go to warp inside a solar system if your engines hadn't been balanced. That's what caused the trouble in STIMP.
That's part of it. But DS9: "By Inferno's Light" has Dax object when Kira orders taking the Defiant to warp inside a solar system, suggesting it's hazardous even for a properly calibrated engine.

I figure going to warp in-system kind of like speeding -- it's something that creates a risk of accidental harm to oneself or others, especially in a region with a lot of traffic, but the risk is justifiable for official vehicles in emergency situations.
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Old October 20 2012, 01:48 AM   #42
Tiberius
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Re: FC plothole? Why didn't the Borg create the vortex in the Delta Q?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Ti-BOO!-rius wrote: View Post
I always figured that it was dangerous to go to warp inside a solar system if your engines hadn't been balanced. That's what caused the trouble in STIMP.
That's part of it. But DS9: "By Inferno's Light" has Dax object when Kira orders taking the Defiant to warp inside a solar system, suggesting it's hazardous even for a properly calibrated engine.
Maybe O'Brien had been tinkering with the engines and they hadn't had time to re-balance them yet.

I figure going to warp in-system kind of like speeding -- it's something that creates a risk of accidental harm to oneself or others, especially in a region with a lot of traffic, but the risk is justifiable for official vehicles in emergency situations.
That may be, but as I've said, we've seen the Enterprise warp out of orbit lots of times. One example that comes to mind is in "The Vengeance Factor," where the Enterprise warps out of orbit with the local dignitary on board. There wasn't really any emergency situation that called for warp speed at the earliest possible time, and acting recklessly without cause is not something I can see Picard doing when he got a local queen aboard.
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Old October 20 2012, 03:59 AM   #43
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Re: FC plothole? Why didn't the Borg create the vortex in the Delta Q?

This is just one of those things that different creators deal with inconsistently, and there's no uniform approach. Going to warp in-system is only a problem when the writer chooses to make it a problem. So there's just no way to come up with a single rule that explains everything. Personally I tend to treat shots of ships going to warp directly out of planetary orbit as a dramatic shorthand, unless it's clear from the dialogue or story situation that that's what's literally happening.
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Old October 20 2012, 04:43 AM   #44
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Re: FC plothole? Why didn't the Borg create the vortex in the Delta Q?

Christopher wrote: View Post
This is just one of those things that different creators deal with inconsistently, and there's no uniform approach. Going to warp in-system is only a problem when the writer chooses to make it a problem. So there's just no way to come up with a single rule that explains everything.
Maybe, but it sure is fun to extrapolate!

Personally I tend to treat shots of ships going to warp directly out of planetary orbit as a dramatic shorthand, unless it's clear from the dialogue or story situation that that's what's literally happening.
I think that when Sovereign Marouk watches the Enterprise going to warp from the window and says, "A fine ship, Commander!" that's pretty strong evidence that it's what really happens. :P
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Old October 20 2012, 12:33 PM   #45
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Re: FC plothole? Why didn't the Borg create the vortex in the Delta Q?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Ti-BOO!-rius wrote: View Post
I always figured that it was dangerous to go to warp inside a solar system if your engines hadn't been balanced. That's what caused the trouble in STIMP.
That's part of it. But DS9: "By Inferno's Light" has Dax object when Kira orders taking the Defiant to warp inside a solar system, suggesting it's hazardous even for a properly calibrated engine.

I figure going to warp in-system kind of like speeding -- it's something that creates a risk of accidental harm to oneself or others, especially in a region with a lot of traffic, but the risk is justifiable for official vehicles in emergency situations.
Since I've seen ships go to warp dozens of times within star systems and have only heard it raised as a problem once, I'll simply go with DS9 getting it wrong.
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