Trek 09 question..

[Pawleygirl]

Actually I have 2 questions about Star Trek. First, if Spock was on a planet close enough to see Vulcan destroyed, wouldn't the planet that he was on be sucked in to the same black hole thing there? Secondly, when Kirk and Sulu landed on the drill to disable it, none of them, even the Romulans have on any helmets or anything. How could they breathe in that high of an altitude or even stand without being blown away by a jet stream current or something?

[Kruezerman]

1. I never really considered the black holes in the movie "real" black holes because real black holes are a lot stronger than that. So maybe they were small, mini black holes only strong enough to last just a bit and their range of gravity was only enough to grab what was close.

2. It depends on how high up they were, in the attack on San Fransisco, you could see buildings and the bridge, so it couldn't been that high up.

[Set Harth]

On question 1: even though the film made it look like Spock was close enough to see Vulcan being destroyed, he really couldn't have been as close as depicted. I know this doesn't really make sense, but Vulcan has no moon or sister planet called Delta Vega. So that part of Spock's recollection is in some way visually impressionistic.

[Nerys Myk]

Set Harth wrote:

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On question 1: even though the film made it look like Spock was close enough to see Vulcan being destroyed, he really couldn't have been as close as depicted. I know this doesn't really make sense, but Vulcan has no moon or sister planet called Delta Vega. So that part of Spock's recollection is in some way visually impressionistic.

Sure it does. It said so in the film.

The images were via a mind meld, so it would have to be based on Spock's impressions. Nothing was from Spock's POV visually.

[Set Harth]

Orci wrote:

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I prefer to think of Delta Vega as being in close orbit ( although it could be a moon ), but nonetheless, we like to think of that sequence as impressionistic for a general audience. In other words, Nero could've beamed Spock prime down to Delta Vega with a telescope or some other type of measuring device to allow Spock to experience the pain of perceiving the destruction of his home world, but that simply isn't very cinematic.

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[UFO]

Set Harth wrote:

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And it would highlight even more starkly the "strange" decision to beam him down anywhere given Spock would get a much better view from the Narada's bridge, where Nero (as per traditional villain behaviour) could "enjoy" his suffering, assuming he displayed any. Ah, but however could nuKirk and nuScotty meet him there? Oh well, beam away ...

[King Daniel into Darkness]

Set Harth wrote:

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On question 1: even though the film made it look like Spock was close enough to see Vulcan being destroyed, he really couldn't have been as close as depicted. I know this doesn't really make sense, but Vulcan has no moon or sister planet called Delta Vega. So that part of Spock's recollection is in some way visually impressionistic.

There were two large bodies on Vulcan's horizons in TAS: "Yesteryear" and the Vulcan sky was jam packed with planets and moons in Star Trek: The Motion Picture. I have no problem with Delta Vega being in eyeshot of Vulcan in STXI, whether it's one of those or another world in the Vulcan system, all of which probably have very unlikely orbits!

[Sparky]

I've never really bought into the whole "black hole" thing. A black hole created from Vulcan would have the same mass as Vulcan. Just compressed down into a very very tiny space. A black hole created from the Nerada should have the same mass as the Nerada. I guess red matter is just pretty damn special.

[Spock/Uhura Fan]

I hate to say it, but if you think of it more as an action movie (where factual information and the best likelihoods aren't much of a concern) then it's easier to dismiss any qualms or questions you might have. I think in the film, we're led to believe that Nero left Spock Prime there to see the destruction of his planet and that's all we're supposed to focus on. ST09 is basically an action movie with some sci-fi elements.

[Kruezerman]

Spook/Hoorah! Admirer wrote:

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I hate to say it, but if you think of it more as an action movie (where factual information and the best likelihoods aren't much of a concern) then it's easier to dismiss any qualms or questions you might have. I think in the film, we're led to believe that Nero left Spock Prime there to see the destruction of his planet and that's all we're supposed to focus on. ST09 is basically an action movie with some sci-fi elements.

Which really is most Trek movies in general. I mean hell, TWOK had a device that created a livable planet from a rock and First Contact was Star Trek with zombies.

[Timo]

STXI sort of preempts part of the critique by making it a plot point that unlikely coincidences are happening. That is, "fate" is conspiring to bring Kirk and his crew together in this alternate timeline, in order to make it more like the "prime" timeline.

Supposedly, "fate" always was part of this Trek timeline business, as almost all the time travel stories hinge on major changes in the past taking place, and then being only partially undone, but the present that evolves from this only "partially repaired" past is still identical to the one we've learned to know and love. Time seems to repair itself somehow...

As for the specific story points of this thread, getting sucked into Vulcan should not have been a problem with "real" black holes. But it was a problem with red matter holes according to our heroes - the Enterprise herself was said to be in such danger if she failed to leave Vulcan orbit in time. And later we saw red matter almost suck the starship in when only the insignificant mass of the Narada was available for the black hole. So the original question is quite relevant.

And yes, I go with the crowd that says Spock was nowhere near Vulcan. After all, he was sharing a planet with Scotty who showed no signs of being anywhere near Vulcan! Plus, it was a planet with almost unbroken cloud cover. Nero could not have counted on Spock seeing anything in the sky, not with his eyes. But Nero could probably have counted on Spock witnessing the destruction of Vulcan even lightyears away: Vulcans are established as having that ability (TOS "Immunity Syndrome"), and perhaps Romulans have it as well.

As for the second point, the altitude was never made explicit or easy to estimate - but we saw it took exactly 68 seconds for Sulu to fall from the platform over Vulcan to the very surface, in a constant-dialogue, real-speed scene. Sulu (and later the Sulu-Kirk combination) would be falling at about human terminal velocity, which (assuming air resistance roughly similar to Earth atmosphere at about sea level) would give 3.6 kilometers or 2.3 miles of fall (sufficiently supporting the assumption).

So, our heroes would be breathing mountain air, with possible health consequences, but wouldn't be at Everest heights yet; the struggle could take place without extra oxygen or without our heroes or villains fainting.

And clearly it wasn't too windy there near the drill. We don't know enough about Vulcan to judge where its jetstreams might be found, but 3-4 kilometers probably isn't it yet.

Timo Saloniemi

[The Keeper]

I don't think we can use past time travel experiences to try to predict what's gonna happen, or not, in this universe.

It's a different Universe, not an altered Original timeline. If it were an altered Original Timeline then 'timeline healing itself' theorem would make sense but because it's not the same Universe/timeline, why bother?

We all agree the Mirror Universe was not an altered Orignal Timeline, correct? Events in that Universe differ vastly from the Prime Timeline and we all agree those differences are normal for that Universe, no healing required so why don't we just see this NuUniverse the same way? It is one of thousands (or more) different Universes as shown in TNG: Parallels.

Frankly, IMO, any attempt to mold this universe into a clone of the original misses the point of the reboot.

[John Mason]

Regarding Q1

Would a red matter black hole differ from a naturally occurring one,
if so would the red matter forming it be susceptible to unlimited spacial expansion to allow it to collapse in on itself under it's own gravity? Thus sparing the planets/moons in the vicinity of Vulcan?

Just wondering?

[King Daniel into Darkness]

Shape-Shifter wrote:

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I don't think we can use past time travel experiences to try to predict what's gonna happen, or not, in this universe.

It's a different Universe, not an altered Original timeline. If it were an altered Original Timeline then 'timeline healing itself' theorem would make sense but because it's not the same Universe/timeline, why bother?

alternate universe, alternate reality and alternate timeline are all interchangable terms for the same thing.

The movie makes no mention of hopping universes, only time travel. Ditto the official tie-ins (particularly Watching the Clock, which goes into detail about how Trek's different types of time travel work)

We all agree the Mirror Universe was not an altered Orignal Timeline, correct?

That TPTB allowed at least two "branch point" mirror universe stories in the novels and comics, and William Shatner nearly starred in an Enterprise episode about the origins of the mirror universe, I'd say that's less than conclusive!

The phrase "alternate reality" which Uhura uses to describe STXI's timeline was first used by Mirror T'Pol in "In a Mirror, Darkly" to decribe Trek's Prime timeline.

Events in that Universe differ vastly from the Prime Timeline and we all agree those differences are normal for that Universe, no healing required so why don't we just see this NuUniverse the same way? It is one of thousands (or more) different Universes as shown in TNG: Parallels.

But it's not normal, that's the whole point. The film goes to great pains to point out that Nero's actions have altered history from what it should have been (TOS)

Frankly, IMO, any attempt to mold this universe into a clone of the original misses the point of the reboot.

That is true to an extent, but I'd say it's more an excuse for the writers to pick and choose whatever bits they liked and ditch what they didn't.

[Mr. Laser Beam]

IIRC, the only time we actually saw the imploding Vulcan being visible from Delta Vega was when Spock was mind melding with Kirk. There's some dramatic license at work there, then. Not meant to be taken literally.