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Old October 13 2012, 10:27 PM   #526
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Indeed - I just popped for the saucer because a trip all the way down to the engineering hull from Deck 5 seemed odd given Kirk's urgency to stargaze (unless he moved his quarters again!)
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Old October 13 2012, 10:38 PM   #527
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

@Mytran - True - that seems the most likely place give the shape of the window (ignoring the inner wall curve).

@ Bob - Sorry if I'm being very specific on the details but that's the aim of this project is to go over TOS with a fine-toothed comb without using any additional knowledge of the production crew or writers. "What Would The Thermians Do?"
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Old October 17 2012, 03:30 PM   #528
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"Sorry if I'm being very specific on the details but that's the aim of this project is to go over TOS with a fine-toothed comb without using any additional knowledge of the production crew or writers. "What Would The Thermians Do?"
Gentlemen,
regarding the window issue in Kirk's (provisional) quarters on deck 12 in Mudd's Women, I'll have to ask that you put your video recording in and watch the first scene in Kirk's quarter before Mudd's Women enter (oddly enough, this important screencap is not part of the Trekcore collection!).

You can clearly see a multi-layered structure that resembles the structure of an airplane window and not of a wall shell or insert.
Of course we do not see stars through it, because such a VFX couldn't be produced, then, so the cameramen simply shot in an angle according to Matt Jefferies' credo "identification through association."

Given the angle of the walls these provisional quarters would indeed be in the engineering hull ("deck 12") and since Mudd's quarters have the exact same angle it is fair to assume that his quarters are also on deck 12 (guest quarters). My deck plans to illustrate these possibilities are ready soon, worked much better out than I had originally dared to imagine.
The only problem is that you can have only two quarters with exterior windows on deck 12, so Janice Rand's quarters are excluded but in her case they covered the windows with these panels.

If I'm not mistaken, the only Season One shots showing the exterior of Kirk's quarters are all early on. One of the problems insisting that Kirk's quarters had always been on deck 5 is this: One outer wall of his corridor set in Season One is next to the mysterious dead-end corridor.
From Season Two on, they enlarged the set and put another room next to this wall, in between the (former dead-end) corridor and Kirk's quarters (on deck 5).
There was a good visualization of the problem on page 3 in post # 39.
According to "What Would Brandon Do?" (the young man in "Galaxy Quest" who was part of a fan group figuring out the schematics of NSE Protector) I'm confident he would think that we are looking at two different kinds of quarters for James T. Kirk.

Bob
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Old October 17 2012, 08:39 PM   #529
Albertese
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Well, "What Would Brandon Do?" and "What Would The Thermians Do?" are two different questions. The Thermians have only the show to go from. Whereas, Brandon and his buddies, like us, have access to behind the scenes materials which explain creators intent. We know what short-cuts the producers made and why, but the Thermians wouldn't have that context.

I'm just sayin'.

--Alex
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Old October 18 2012, 04:48 AM   #530
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Gentlemen,
regarding the window issue in Kirk's (provisional) quarters on deck 12 in Mudd's Women, I'll have to ask that you put your video recording in and watch the first scene in Kirk's quarter before Mudd's Women enter (oddly enough, this important screencap is not part of the Trekcore collection!).

You can clearly see a multi-layered structure that resembles the structure of an airplane window and not of a wall shell or insert.
Of course we do not see stars through it, because such a VFX couldn't be produced, then, so the cameramen simply shot in an angle according to Matt Jefferies' credo "identification through association."
And there lies my difficulty. I do not see stars through it. It is also lit with a blue glow light from the top which is also inconsistent with the other two examples of windows into space ("The Conscience of the King" and "The Mark of Gideon") that simply show black space and stars. Even if it has a structure to (which is nice detail) it still doesn't lead to an outside view.

It's interesting to know the reasoning why something was filmed that way, but for the purposes of this project, it is the end product that counts

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Given the angle of the walls these provisional quarters would indeed be in the engineering hull ("deck 12") and since Mudd's quarters have the exact same angle it is fair to assume that his quarters are also on deck 12 (guest quarters). My deck plans to illustrate these possibilities are ready soon, worked much better out than I had originally dared to imagine.
The only problem is that you can have only two quarters with exterior windows on deck 12, so Janice Rand's quarters are excluded but in her case they covered the windows with these panels.
Actually, there is another problem. Almost all of the scenes where the cabin is featured you can make out this same angled wall. The problem is that there is only one deck, somewhere below the flight deck, that can possibly support the angle of the wall for windows to line up to the exterior skin. That would make all the other cabin instances, such as those on deck 5, etc, have the exact same "insets" but are no longer called windows still present. Or that means that all cabins are in the engineering hull, below the flight deck. Again, that works against the idea that they are windows as other decks could not possibly use them because of the different exterior angles of different decks, IMO.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
If I'm not mistaken, the only Season One shots showing the exterior of Kirk's quarters are all early on. One of the problems insisting that Kirk's quarters had always been on deck 5 is this:
I don't believe I've insisted Kirk's quarters being "always on Deck 5". IIRC, I've posted that I believe Kirk was on Deck 12 early on and moved to Deck 5. He may also have moved around on Deck 5 through the series.
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Old October 18 2012, 01:31 PM   #531
BK613
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Probably doesn't fit in the WWTTD theme but why must the interior walls line up with the hull at all? The cabins could be standardized builds with the window-to-hull bits customized to fit. From the interior. with the inner "blinds" closed, the rooms would look the same.
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Old October 18 2012, 02:01 PM   #532
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

The main reason in this project in the WWTTD thinking the interior window must conform to the exterior is mostly to be consistent with the other two examples of TOS windows. Secondly, knowing the spacing between the inside and outside of the window frame gives us a max clearance between the interior wall and the exterior wall.

If we assumed that theses were windows, then the window-to-hull bits can be excessively long, especially on other decks where the angle differences are greater and these windows tend to be more skylight or dungeon-style windows (the long tunnel looking out) which I think would make it feel more claustrophobic...

I'll have to mock up a picture when I get home.
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Old October 18 2012, 02:10 PM   #533
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"And there lies my difficulty. I do not see stars through it. It is also lit with a blue glow light from the top which is also inconsistent with the other two examples of windows into space ("The Conscience of the King" and "The Mark of Gideon") that simply show black space and stars."
Looks to me like they may have tried using blue screen, found out it looked like crap and instead went for a black drape with holes in "Conscience of the King" and "Mark of Gideon" (and in TNG).

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"Even if it has a structure to (which is nice detail) it still doesn't lead to an outside view."
But you said yourself that you assumed, too, Kirk's quarters had originally been on deck 12 and that the wall angle is also compatible with the outer skin of the engineering hull?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"Actually, there is another problem. Almost all of the scenes where the cabin is featured you can make out this same angled wall. The problem is that there is only one deck, somewhere below the flight deck, that can possibly support the angle of the wall for windows to line up to the exterior skin. That would make all the other cabin instances, such as those on deck 5, etc, have the exact same "insets" but are no longer called windows still present. Or that means that all cabins are in the engineering hull, below the flight deck. Again, that works against the idea that they are windows as other decks could not possibly use them because of the different exterior angles of different decks, IMO."
I'm not sure I see the problem. Other than Season One (or deck 12) I do not recall having seen windows (or insets) in the crew's quarters (established to be in the saucer hull) ever again.

We all know that re-using existing sets was standard procedure for the series. The interesting thing about the crew quarters cabin is that you can either put it on deck 12 (angled-in wall) or deck 5 (curvature of ceiling seems to correspond with curvature of upper side on saucer). As for the angled-in wall I assume there's plenty of plumbing and GNDNs running through or the (hidden and angled-in) struts support framework stability of the upper side.

Bob
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Old October 18 2012, 02:33 PM   #534
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Looks to me like they may have tried using blue screen, found out it looked like crap and instead went for a black drape with holes in "Conscience of the King" and "Mark of Gideon" (and in TNG).
That's possible, although with their use of colored lights all over the sets its hard to tell what their actual intention was.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"Even if it has a structure to (which is nice detail) it still doesn't lead to an outside view."
But you said yourself that you assumed, too, Kirk's quarters had originally been on deck 12 and that the wall angle is also compatible with the outer skin of the engineering hull?
I did a search through this thread and couldn't find where I said that. I do mention those insets as "possible windows but was not convinced that they were." Now, I'm pretty sure they are not windows given the other two examples to work from.

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.ph...ck#post4058831

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.ph...ck#post5090541

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blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"Actually, there is another problem. Almost all of the scenes where the cabin is featured you can make out this same angled wall. The problem is that there is only one deck, somewhere below the flight deck, that can possibly support the angle of the wall for windows to line up to the exterior skin. That would make all the other cabin instances, such as those on deck 5, etc, have the exact same "insets" but are no longer called windows still present. Or that means that all cabins are in the engineering hull, below the flight deck. Again, that works against the idea that they are windows as other decks could not possibly use them because of the different exterior angles of different decks, IMO."
I'm not sure I see the problem. Other than Season One (or deck 12) I do not recall having seen windows (or insets) in the crew's quarters (established to be in the saucer hull) ever again.

We all know that re-using existing sets was standard procedure for the series. The interesting thing about the crew quarters cabin is that you can either put it on deck 12 (angled-in wall) or deck 5 (curvature of ceiling seems to correspond with curvature of upper side on saucer). As for the angled-in wall I assume there's plenty of plumbing and GNDNs running through or the (hidden and angled-in) struts support framework stability of the upper side.
The curvature of the ceiling reveals that it goes up further than the curving brace itself. It unfortunately is seen in many episodes afterwards.

But just to clarify, I don't have a problem with Kirk's cabin on Deck 12 being in the engineering hull above the flight deck levels. I'm just not putting the cabin against an exterior wall and not treating the insets as windows due to lack of stars visible and incompatible inset angle to exterior hull angle.
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Old October 18 2012, 10:33 PM   #535
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"But just to clarify, I don't have a problem with Kirk's cabin on Deck 12 being in the engineering hull above the flight deck levels. I'm just not putting the cabin against an exterior wall and not treating the insets as windows due to lack of stars visible and incompatible inset angle to exterior hull angle."
According to the Making of Star Trek there are 16 decks in the engineering hull and according to your own cutaway http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=119751&page=9
there are 16 decks there, according to which Deck 12 would be below and not above the flight deck level.

Bob
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Old October 19 2012, 12:14 AM   #536
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

@Bob - Aaahhh you're using the neck and engineering decks to count down. I really need to post up my conjectural deck count as my Deck 1 is the bridge going down. Deck 12 would be something like above the 2 story engine room (or the 2nd full deck from the top of the engineering hull, +/- 1 deck.
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Old October 19 2012, 02:57 AM   #537
BK613
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

^ I'm sure the Thermians would be content to place the Bridge on Deck 13 if it made all the other deck numbers work.
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Old October 19 2012, 05:09 AM   #538
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Only as a last resort
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Old October 20 2012, 07:37 PM   #539
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"Aaahhh you're using the neck and engineering decks to count down."
Yes, there's no way decks 12 or 14 as seen in Season One could ever fit inside the neck. It's another one of those idiotic things where fans take Franz Joseph as canon and consider the information from the actual episodes erroneous.

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"I really need to post up my conjectural deck count as my Deck 1 is the bridge going down. Deck 12 would be something like above the 2 story engine room (or the 2nd full deck from the top of the engineering hull, +/- 1 deck.)"
If I read you correct, you do not acknowledge the decks in the neck to be decks with a number? But you continue with the saucer's deck numbering once you're inside the engineering hull?

I believe there are a couple of problems with this approach: There's not that much space in the top deck of the Engineering Hull to begin with (apologies that I insist but Kirk's provisional quarters on deck 12 in "Mudd's Women" and "The Enemy Within" do connect to a circular corridor which has a turbo lift at its end near Kirk's quarters IMHO).

Then there is the issue with the Auxilary Control Room from "Doomsday Machine" which "I, Mudd" locates on (engineering) deck 8. The forward strut structure of the Auxilary Control Room seems to correspond rather well with the upper bow of the engineering hull: http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...linghd0428.jpg

It appears the landing party arrives on (engineering) deck 8 in "Doomsday Machine" from where Scotty and his technicians descend to the upper level of the engineering section: http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...hinehd0207.jpg

Where there's a turbo lift door in "Journey to Babel" next to the main door to engineering section there's just a corridor (because that high up there's no more running space for lateral turbo lifts). Also notice that there are pipes and cables hanging from the ceiling. In my view this is usually (in Star Trek) the result of weapon fire impact on the outer surface of a vessel and the space just below.

Bob
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; October 20 2012 at 08:41 PM.
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Old October 21 2012, 03:00 AM   #540
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Okay, here's my current WIP for decks on the TOS Enterprise.

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