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Old October 12 2012, 04:30 PM   #1201
137th Gebirg
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Brendan Moody wrote: View Post
If the letter's going to be at all important later on, I'm sure they'll work it in. I don't tend to think it will be-- whatever Jon does after A Dance with Dragons, it probably isn't going to be taking up the banner of the King in the North, and if all that happens is him refusing the possibility, that's not important enough from the TV writers' perspective to be worth dramatizing.
I'm curious if the letter "naturalizing" Jon as a full-blooded Stark is even going to be worth the paper it's printed on, seeing that...
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Old October 12 2012, 04:50 PM   #1202
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

A few people who know the content of the declaration are alive and free, mostly notably Galbart Glover and Maege Mormont, who have the physical copy, and whose whereabouts since their departure for Greywater Watch during A Storm of Swords are unknown. But there's hardly anything in the way of an army to press a claim by a new King in the North... at the moment. How the northmen currently allied with Stannis or with Bolton might react to a Stark resurgence is an open question, though, as we agree, probably a moot one.
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Old October 16 2012, 06:56 PM   #1203
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

As the release of The Lands of Ice and Fire approaches, a few preview images of parts of the map have been posted. Last week Westeros.org had a fairly dull piece of the map of the North that didn't really add anything we hadn't seen before, but this week there's a section of the Braavos map that's a little more interesting. MTV Geek has four images. Two of them (a snippet of the Beyond the Wall map including Castle Black and Craster's Keep, and a close-up of the northeastern part of Valyria) are just prettier versions of maps we've seen before, but there's another piece of Braavos, and something from a map called "The Known World" that features a number of locations I don't think have ever been referenced before; presumably they're in unvisited parts of Essos or Sothoryos.
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Old October 16 2012, 07:17 PM   #1204
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Red Wedding confirmed for episode 3.09:
http://winteriscoming.net/2012/10/ne...nd/#more-20858

David Nutter directing.
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Old October 16 2012, 09:00 PM   #1205
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I can't wait to see how the response compares to the one that followed Eddard's death.
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Old October 17 2012, 05:17 PM   #1206
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I think it may be even more shocking to those who haven't read the books than was Ned's execution.
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Old October 17 2012, 07:16 PM   #1207
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Yeah, it was definitely worse. It was the point in the series where you sort of gave up rooting for the good guys to win in the end, and just decided to read the rest to see if the bad guys get their due as well.

After that, they pretty much killed anyone you were following or rooting for, and you had to start over with lesser prospects...
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Old October 17 2012, 07:28 PM   #1208
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

^
I dunno, there was still Jon Snow and Daenerys to root for. Dany's arc in Storm of Swords is definitely at her most heroic... and Jon's been your heroic noble fantasy lead guy ever since he donned the black. Given both of them had way more prominence in the books than Robb and their own POV chapters it's a little easier to see them as the novel's heroes, too.

Honestly I pegged Robb Stark to die back in A Game of Thrones because he was the only major Stark without a POV chapter (I'm not counting Rickon here), and even during his heroic stage as the Young Wolf he's a mostly off-stage hero - we hear secondhand about most of his victories, and only when Catelyn is in camp do we get any views of the young King.

The death of Catelyn was the thing I didn't see coming at all and really churned my stomach.
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Old October 17 2012, 07:42 PM   #1209
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I'm not sure that Martin is interested in giving readers people to "root for" in an uncomplicated sense-- he'd rather have even the most sympathetic characters fail and make major mistakes, taking apart the tropes (heroic boy king, noble warrior queen, valiant bastard who rises to power) instead of indulging them. Jon and Dany seemed broadly true to type longer than anyone else, but they both diverge from the script in complicated ways in A Dance with Dragons.
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Old October 17 2012, 09:09 PM   #1210
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Martin seems to love killing Starks off. Ned's father and brother were tortured to death by the mad King. Ned was executed. Benjen appears to be dead. Robb and Cat were killed at the Red Wedding. And Jon? Well, we'll have to see.

I'm hoping the subplot with the Onion Knight and Rickon will lead to the latter ultimately becoming Lord of Winterfell. I think Bran and Jon's destinies lie elsewhere.
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Old October 17 2012, 09:24 PM   #1211
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Jon's not a Stark, he's a Targaryen. He'll be fine.
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Old October 17 2012, 11:35 PM   #1212
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

^^^ Not a full one. Remember, he got burned by the lantern he used to kill the White that attacked the Lord Commander. We are regularly reminded of this every time he flexes his sword hand. He may be like Veseries, a partial dragon-born.
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Old October 17 2012, 11:36 PM   #1213
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I'd really like to think Jon is dead for good, and I say that as someone who likes Jon. Martin is in danger of going to the familiar fantasy well of reviving characters with magical BS a little too often; brutally slaying Ned and Robb does not give him an automatic pass to contort the fantasy magic of his world to revive people at a whim.

That the readership has basically taken Jon Snow's revival as a fait accompli, for example, pretty much ruins the end the books left for him.

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I'm not sure that Martin is interested in giving readers people to "root for" in an uncomplicated sense--
Hardly. Jon Snow is definitely presented as one of the main heroes of the novel, and with his boy-growing-into-a-hero arc it's a recognizably familiar one. He's sympathetic, noble, heroic and magnamious, his ultimate intended foes are quite literally inhuman monsters. Giving him bad judgement is the kind of flaw that in no way tarnishes his virtue or his heroism and does not complicate us rooting for him at all. He's not Walter White or Achilles, in other words.
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Old October 18 2012, 12:59 AM   #1214
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
^^^ Not a full one. Remember, he got burned by the lantern he used to kill the White that attacked the Lord Commander. We are regularly reminded of this every time he flexes his sword hand. He may be like Veseries, a partial dragon-born.
Martin had to actually go on record and say that Targaryens aren't immune to fire, it was the Dragon eggs that were protecting Daenerys until they found a way to hatch. Once they were born they had to take back their protection magic.
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Old October 18 2012, 03:48 AM   #1215
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Jon's death only makes sense dramatically if he is reborn in some way. He may no longer be Jon as we know him, but he must at the very least live on through Ghost(otherwise why bother with all that Varamyr stuff?) which would be even less interesting than him being dead. So far no one that has died has come back "whole" so Jon could be unique in that (boring)way and/or he will be Azor Ahai. Considering shit needs to start moving towards a climax at some point soon, I'm going with the latter and the loss of him as a POV with the role of informing us about the northerly goings-on being passed to Melisandre.
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