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Old October 14 2012, 09:56 PM   #31
Albertese
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

Timo wrote: View Post
...

Spock: "It reports that the jettison button was pressed before the Red Alert."
Shaw: "In other words, it reports that Captain Kirk was reacting to an extreme emergency that did not then exist."
But of course it does not report that. It only reports that Captain Kirk did not believe in an extreme emergency yet, and thus didn't press the Red Alert button to express such belief.

Button pushes are the thing being judged in the trial. But button pushes do not relate to emergencies. Button pushes only relate to Kirk's assessment on whether there exists an emergency or not. If Kirk doesn't press Red Alert in time, Shaw can only accuse him of failing to notice or express that there is an emergency there; the emergency itself cannot be talked away by the silly woman.

Timo Saloniemi

Sorry, my friend. Everyone in the courtroom agrees the jettisoning the pod would have been the acceptable reaction to an "extreme emergency" and the argument is that Kirk jettisoned the pod without there having yet been such a justifiable emergency. In any case, the jettisoning was assumed to be an emergency measure.

It makes some sense for Kirk to have the jettison button on his own control board. As it is such a dangerous post and the safety of the entire ship depends on the status of this pod, it seems reasonable that the captain has the eject/abort button at his sole use. After all a crewman's life is on the line and the decision to push the button would have to be made quickly. How does Kirk know when to push it? We never see the main bridge viewscreen. Presumably the required data was on display there. The dialogue suggests that Finney was in the pod while it was taking its readings and remained there when it was jettisoned, only really he did get out in those precious few seconds and made it look otherwise.

I really just can't see it any other way.

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Old October 15 2012, 10:55 AM   #32
Timo
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

After all a crewman's life is on the line and the decision to push the button would have to be made quickly.
To the contrary, I'd think that since a life is on the line, everybody else should keep their dirty fingers off the button, and Finney and Finney alone should have the authority to jettison the pod. Kirk would have the complementary authority to abort the mission, simply by flying out of the storm. Clearly, flying and ion pods are perfectly compatible things: Kirk e.g. orders a speed change while Finney is fiddling with the pod, and tells helm to hold course as if there were alternatives.

All evidence for the pod itself being dangerous or harmful to the ship, or even an inconvenience, is circumstantial at best. Evidence of pod jettison being harmful to Finney is more solid, as nobody really expects him to have survived the event - but Kirk does order a search in or around the ship, which would be consistent if Finney were stuck in a chute accessing a pod that is about to be launched, the same way Scotty accesses instrumentation in that angled tube in many episodes, and might have been sucked out with the pod and blown into space. If Finney were in the pod in the sense of sitting inside at the observer's seat, one would expect that whatever emergency pressure door system saved the mothership from losing its air at jettison would also save Finney's life, and he would be searched for, not in or around the ship, but at the current location of the ion pod.

Fundamentally, of course, we have the problem here that the writer was most probably thinking about a crow's nest in the mast of a ship, or an observation balloon/kite, and then adding this jettison thing without thinking through the implications - whereas modern audiences can more comfortably think in terms of tornado hunters, and appreciate the idea of deploying and dropping monitoring devices in the middle of a non-survivable phenomenon in a hair-raising maneuver. And vice versa, modern audiences would be appalled to think in terms of sending a person to die in an observation balloon.

The writing, regardless of intent, caters for both interpretations. But it's not particularly formulated to support the crow's nest approach. Finney is never indicated to be in any danger before Kirk supposedly murders him - the ion pod is not a dangerous assignment in any other sense than as a possible tool for a sinister plot. The ship in turn is indicated to be in constant danger, which Kirk constantly judges through his own expertise. We lack information on what happens when Kirk declares the danger unbearable: the computer tells the lie that he ejects the pod, while dialogue vaguely suggests Kirk actually first calls Red Alert and then fires the pod, then somehow saves the ship.

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Old October 15 2012, 11:17 AM   #33
Timo
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

I'd buy into your interpretation if there was just a shred of dialogue support into the episode.
For me, it's sufficient that there's not a shred of actual opposition to the interpretation.

The plot as written is full of absurdities, such as parts of the ship being harmful to the ship as a whole but not to the person inside, or devices that cannot be automated despite posing a high risk. But the dialogue doesn't set these absurdities in stone - only certain interpretations do.

And that is where Kirk is forced to jettison the pod, not deploy and run. If they could've fired an automated ion probe into the storm they would've.
We have no idea what really happened because all we ever saw was a dirty lie, truncating the story just when it got interesting. We are never told how Kirk and the ship survived the storm, and what role the jettisoning of the pod played in all that.

If the storm did not get worse, they would've kept the pod and sailed out of it.
That's another thing we can't know, because the recounting of events is truncated. Nobody ever said they were going to keep the pod. There was a dedicated button for jettisoning it, installed specifically for this mission. And Kirk's finger was hovering over that button.

But with the storm worsening, the pod was the danger and it had to be jettisoned. That was the emergency as stated in the episode.
Except that it wasn't. The pod was never indicated to be a danger of any sort. It just had to be jettisoned, sooner or later. And Kirk had buttons for jettisoning and for defining "sooner" and "later".

He's on trial because Kirk perjured himself and jettisoned the pod in a non-emergency situation, which caused Finney's death.
Perjury is a false charge based on the computer being rigged, and irrelevant here. The separate relevant charge is on Kirk jettisoning the pod before telling Finney he was gonna do it - that's what Red Alert is, a signal of intent. Emergencies are not mentioned when the seasoned skipper Stone discusses the issue. Only the hack lawyer Shaw speaks of them, but in a nonsensical manner we can ignore.

What are we to believe? That Kirk would only jettison this deadly threat after an emergency has arisen? Makes no sense. If the threat is the emergency, there is no "after" (well, except in the religious sense) - jettison is a way to prevent the emergency. But if the threat is not the emergency, then there is no chance that the pod is the threat.

Stone expected Kirk to warn Finney before jettison, and never questioned that jettison would take place. Shaw expected Kirk to jettison only if there was an emergency, and the (silly) definition of emergency for her was declaration of Red Alert. It was all about warning and declaring, no matter how one looks at it - not about jettison being an exceptional measure.

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Old October 15 2012, 01:54 PM   #34
blssdwlf
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

Timo wrote: View Post
After all a crewman's life is on the line and the decision to push the button would have to be made quickly.
To the contrary, I'd think that since a life is on the line, everybody else should keep their dirty fingers off the button, and Finney and Finney alone should have the authority to jettison the pod.
Well since it is a "jettison" and not a "launch" then Kirk makes more sense because he knows whats going on with the ship's flight where as Finney only has ion pod readings. Finney might wait too long due to misjudgement or injury and get the ship blown up.

Timo wrote: View Post
I'd buy into your interpretation if there was just a shred of dialogue support into the episode.
For me, it's sufficient that there's not a shred of actual opposition to the interpretation.
Nah, you're just convinced of your interpretation despite the contrary evidence in the episode.

Timo wrote: View Post
And that is where Kirk is forced to jettison the pod, not deploy and run. If they could've fired an automated ion probe into the storm they would've.
We have no idea what really happened because all we ever saw was a dirty lie, truncating the story just when it got interesting. We are never told how Kirk and the ship survived the storm, and what role the jettisoning of the pod played in all that.
Jettisoning the pod saved the ship. That was repeated in the episode and never challenged.

Timo wrote: View Post
That's another thing we can't know, because the recounting of events is truncated. Nobody ever said they were going to keep the pod. There was a dedicated button for jettisoning it, installed specifically for this mission. And Kirk's finger was hovering over that button.
Which again, doesn't indicate that "launching" it was part of the mission since none of the dialogue goes there. The dialogue does support dumping or jettisoning it in case of emergency. Just because the Galileo 7 has a "Fuel Jettison" button doesn't mean it's mission is to go out and dump its fuel everytime she goes out.

Also, the other comparable example to the Enterprise "launching" something inside a large body was in "The Immunity Syndrome" and they took the time to spell out that they were "launching" it at point-blank range. Not "jettisoning".

Timo wrote: View Post
What are we to believe? That Kirk would only jettison this deadly threat after an emergency has arisen? Makes no sense. If the threat is the emergency, there is no "after" (well, except in the religious sense) - jettison is a way to prevent the emergency.
Just like Kirk would fire the phasers of the Enterprise after an emergency has arisen like being attacked by an enemy ship.

It's pretty obvious we're not gonna agree, so I'm going to agree to disagree. But it would interesting to see your re-write of the script to make it work to your interpretation one day.
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Old October 15 2012, 07:16 PM   #35
SonicRanger
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
"Outside the TOS-R references, I'd think all ejection functions would be clustered near the shuttle facilities, save for things that can be fired from torpedo tubes. The TOS-R approach to the ion pod thus appeals to me a lot."
I'm surprised you don't find fault with the TOS-R approach to the ion pod.
It's not an ion pod, it's a running light of the TOS Enterprise! (just another thing they screwed up because they didn't watch or really knew the old series).
The idea that the ion pod resides there dates back (at least) to 1978, published in StarFleet Assembly Manual Number 3:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...8&postcount=21

I dare say that consistency with a fan publication from 1978 shows a great familiarity with this issue and Trek publications.
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Old October 17 2012, 03:03 PM   #36
Robert Comsol
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

SonicRanger wrote: View Post
"The idea that the ion pod resides there dates back (at least) to 1978, published in StarFleet Assembly Manual Number 3:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...8&postcount=21

I dare say that consistency with a fan publication from 1978 shows a great familiarity with this issue and Trek publications."
Do you believe what you can actually see or do you rather believe what others tell you?

Admittedly, authors back in the 70's mostly had no VCRs or means to playback video, therefore I can understand that a few details escaped their attention (like that visible thingy sticking out from the Enterprise model in the NASM was a light bulb).

In the meantime there have been VHS tapes, LaserDiscs and DVDs to notice that it actually is a running light (e.g. "Galileo Seven", "Alternative Factor" etc.) and plenty of time to fix this erroneous mistake.

Familiarity with fan fiction does not equal familiarity with the original source materials (how I'd wish this were the case...)

Bob
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Old October 18 2012, 07:34 AM   #37
SonicRanger
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

So you want one to have familiarity with nearly five decades of Trekdom but also to make the one decision that agrees with your interpretation?
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Old October 18 2012, 08:25 AM   #38
blssdwlf
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

SonicRanger wrote: View Post
The idea that the ion pod resides there dates back (at least) to 1978, published in StarFleet Assembly Manual Number 3:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...8&postcount=21

I dare say that consistency with a fan publication from 1978 shows a great familiarity with this issue and Trek publications.
KIRK: We'll need somebody in the pod for readings.

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...rtialhd003.jpg

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...rtialhd049.jpg

How exactly would Finney fit into the ion pod as depicted in TOS-R? He'd get half his body inside easily, but would then get into in a fetal position? to cram the rest of his body in? And still take readings from the sensing devices (aka ion plates). You can see in the 2nd screenshot the two spaceguys moving the bulb in place for size comparison.

Picking that blinking light bulb as the ion pod doesn't show any familiarity with the episode's dialogue, IMO. Which is a shame since they had a CG model and could've really depicted a larger pod or opt to not show it at all.
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Old October 18 2012, 08:56 AM   #39
Timo
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

That's the beauty of it - there is no need for Finney to comfortably fit inside the pod if it is an ejectable automated device.

Basically, the pod would be a glorified spacesuit, a "hardsuit" typical of 1950s science fiction and fact. Only, this particular pod would be a modification, a probe to be launched from the hardsuit deployment chute. One would still access it the very same way, by crawling into the horizontal chute and into the stem part of the mushroom-shaped device. No room for helping hands there - the perfect vehicle for Finney's nefarious plan...

That the TOS-R folks didn't opt to alter the shape or dimensions of the starship or its random surface featurettes strikes me as particularly elegant.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old October 18 2012, 01:02 PM   #40
BK613
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

So the location in TOS-R could be an Okuda Homage() then? Interesting.

@Timo - Sorry, but Finney was sent to take readings from the pod, was taking readings before the pod was jettisoned, and supposedly was in the pod when it was jettisoned:

SHAW: Freeze that! If the court will notice, the log plainly shows the defendant's finger pressing the jettison button. The condition signal reads Yellow Alert. Not red alert, but simply Yellow Alert. When the pod containing Lieutenant Commander Finney was jettisoned, the emergency did not as yet exist.
To me, an important thing to remember is the presence of four starship commanders in the courtroom, none of which seem to have any issue with the specifics of this fake record, other than the timing of the jettison. Which, to me, means that Ben "I know this ship too" Finney's facsimile can be viewed as authentic in regards to procedure.
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Old October 18 2012, 02:55 PM   #41
SonicRanger
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
SonicRanger wrote: View Post
The idea that the ion pod resides there dates back (at least) to 1978, published in StarFleet Assembly Manual Number 3:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...8&postcount=21

I dare say that consistency with a fan publication from 1978 shows a great familiarity with this issue and Trek publications.
KIRK: We'll need somebody in the pod for readings.

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...rtialhd003.jpg

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...rtialhd049.jpg

How exactly would Finney fit into the ion pod as depicted in TOS-R? He'd get half his body inside easily, but would then get into in a fetal position? to cram the rest of his body in? And still take readings from the sensing devices (aka ion plates). You can see in the 2nd screenshot the two spaceguys moving the bulb in place for size comparison.

Picking that blinking light bulb as the ion pod doesn't show any familiarity with the episode's dialogue, IMO. Which is a shame since they had a CG model and could've really depicted a larger pod or opt to not show it at all.
About the same size:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/project-mercury2.htm

Just 74-inches in diameter.
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Old October 18 2012, 03:12 PM   #42
Albertese
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

Did the Okudas not alter the ship's size? With those little cartoon men changing the Enterprise's lightbulb, They look small to me. I know Doug Drexler's "IaMD" connie crossection scaled the ship up about 150% from MJ's assumed 947' figure to fit everything in the way he saw it. Maybe the CG ship for TOSr was similarly cheated up in scale?

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Old October 18 2012, 11:49 PM   #43
blssdwlf
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

SonicRanger wrote: View Post
About the same size:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/project-mercury2.htm

Just 74-inches in diameter.
If you examine the 2nd screenshot you'll see the opening and the pod that they are about to attach is like 2/3rd the size of the Mercury capsule.

I've included a comparison image of a 6' person or about the height of Finney who is taller than Kirk next to the TOS-R Ion Pod. The TOS-R Ion Pod's ring or attachment interface to the hull is about 4'3" and the dome diameter is about 3'5". Finney would need to be a contortionist to fit in it.

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Old October 19 2012, 07:27 AM   #44
Timo
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

Essentially, we would thus be seeing the thing you find under the title "Space Pod" about halfway down this page:

http://www.projectrho.com/public_htm...spacesuits.php

...Only with a bigger viewing dome, as this baby would be modified with emphasis on sensing rather than manipulation.



Finney could cram himself inside for the priming ops, but the likeliest scenario at premature jettison would be that he'd be sucked out with the suit/pod, but without the benefit of being inside...

Timo Saloniemi
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Old October 19 2012, 11:33 AM   #45
SonicRanger
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

^^^

Indeed, the TNG Technical Manual had a similar "pod" illustrated with the space suits for EVA. See the bottom of this page:

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/ga...-uniforms2.htm
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