RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,932
Posts: 5,389,814
Members: 24,720
Currently online: 482
Newest member: MrSpock

TrekToday headlines

New Trek-themed Bobble Heads
By: T'Bonz on Aug 21

IDW Publishing November Trek Comic
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Pegg/Wright Trilogy In The Works
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Star Trek: The Compendium Rebate Details
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Gold Key Archives Volume 2
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Takei Documentary Wins Award
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Cumberbatch To Voice Khan
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Shaun And Ed On Phineas and Ferb
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

New Ships Coming From Official Starships Collection
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

Trek Stars Take On Ice Bucket Challenge
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Tech

Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 10 2012, 08:20 AM   #16
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: TFF Shuttle

...Being equal to the speed of a starship that is departing a busy starbase might not mean being equal to the top speed of a starship, or even to her cruising speed.

Generally, the TOS starship departed places at warp 1 or 2. She was seldom heading away from the week's adventure at a high warp factor in the end of an episode, even though it would stand to reason that she would soon be utilizing warp 6 in order to get to the next adventure. A slow start would make sense as a standard procedure - and would give Kirk some slim hope of catching Spock by flying a shuttle that can do at most warp 2.

Well, most backstage sources suggest the Type-7 shuttlecraft is equipped with a warp core to power those nacelles, so if it isn't warp capable it must be pretty damn fast.
True. But it need not be at warp speed in episodes like "Samaritan Snare" where the windows show impulse views.

We already have a reason to believe that warping is sometimes inadvisable or flat out impossible when approaching a planet. "Best of Both Worlds" is a perfect example: the world is about to end, but Riker slows to impulse in his quest to reach Earth before the Borg. If we consider this to be a common occurrence, it would make sense for a starship not to go all the way into a "no-warp" star system, but rather to drop off the passengers at the edge of the system and let them continue the voyage aboard a shuttle. And never mind that the shuttle would be capable of warp - it would be flying at impulse because of the "no-warp" condition, and would be a more affordable vehicle for wasting time in that fashion than an entire starship.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11 2012, 04:09 AM   #17
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TFF Shuttle

"BOBW" isn't that good an example because when they entered the Sol system at supposedly impulse, their actual distance and time traveled says they were still traveling FTL...
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11 2012, 09:12 AM   #18
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: TFF Shuttle

True enough. Possibly Riker only temporarily slowed down to impulse to get his bearings, and then continued towards Earth at warp? But it would be extremely slow going for warp, twenty minutes from Jupiter'ish to Earth... Still a good reason to dispatch a shuttle rather than a starship, such as in "Samaritan Snare", "Neutral Zone", "Mind's Eye", or just about any episode where the heroes are in a shuttle, arriving from a conference or whatnot, and at impulse long before rendezvousing with the mothership. And if the difference between impulse and warp is so small (warp is only twice as fast in this model), perhaps impulse is a smart choice for the shuttle flight?

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 12 2012, 03:03 AM   #19
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TFF Shuttle

Sure, don't see a problem with leveraging shuttles for short hops where a starship might be overkill (or too inefficient)
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 13 2012, 01:32 AM   #20
FKnight
Commander
 
FKnight's Avatar
 
Re: TFF Shuttle

mos6507 wrote: View Post
The problem with TNG in general is that the technology became so much better and more infallible that the risk of space travel was almost completely lost. Shuttles not only got warp, but weapons systems, shields, mini transporters, and even bunks. They just became miniature starships, and it just was the wrong direction to go.
It was 78 years later, though, so I would expect technological progression, refinements, and further development of things -- especially when you have the combined knowledge of the many technologically advanced worlds of the Federation. These seem like reasonable advances three quarters of a century hence from TOS. As far as bunks, I can't really see how these would be unreasonable in any Trek era. NASA's shuttles have bunks. The Galileo 7 didn't have bunks, but that's only one shuttle from one starship. Surely the Federation has had need in the past for small, short range craft for movement of a number of people requiring bunks, at least at some point.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Seriously, though, that's a common misconception. Strictly speaking, the relativistic effects only apply while you are traveling at high speed, and even then only from the perspective of an outside observer. Those effects disappear and turn out to be illusory after you decelerate.
Not to totally derail the thread, but you say it's a common misconception, and I have to think, IMO, that the reason this belief is generally held is because this is what the scientific community is apparently telling us, from what I've been able to gather from all of the contradictory statements I hear from those supposedly knowledgeable about this area of science.

As far as I'm able to perceive, the scientific community absolutely believes that time dilation due to relativistic velocities means that these are not illusory at all -- those people spending all that government grant money are actually telling us that it is real, and they even take it a step further and claim that actual time travel to the past is also possible, basing those claims on the same fundamental theories and equations.

For myself, I don't buy any of the stuff about time dilation, twin paradoxes, time travel to the past, skipping over time to the future, or even that "time" is some physical dimension. Are you saying the scientific community that has been pushing that for years hasn't really been saying they believe in that stuff?

Just curious, cuz now I'm confused.
__________________
"You have been examined. Your ship must be destroyed. We make assumption you have a deity, or deities, or some such beliefs which comfort you. We therefore grant you ten Earth time periods known as minutes to make preparations."
FKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 13 2012, 02:46 AM   #21
mos6507
Captain
 
mos6507's Avatar
 
Re: TFF Shuttle

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Nope, brand new, never used before design.
Sorry, I had my logic reversed. TFF made it first, the it was cannibalized for TNG to make the Type 6.

I just assumed that since the budget for TFF was so small that they reused as much as possible from TNG.

It was 78 years later, though, so I would expect technological progression,
That was part of the problem with TNG in general. Why move it 78 years ahead? So that the TOS actors would not be included other than the cameo by an elderly McCoy in the pilot for the hand-off. Of course, they wound up having Spock and Scotty and Sarek show up anyway.

The era that TOS and the movies were in were ideal. When they moved it ahead they shifted the timeline to a much less interesting period in Federation history where there was less exploration left for them to do. TOS felt like a frontier and TNG felt like endless diplomatic missions with the Borg and Q being the main things to liven it up.
__________________
Fem Trekz on Facebook
mos6507 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 13 2012, 04:13 AM   #22
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: TFF Shuttle

FKnight wrote: View Post
Not to totally derail the thread, but you say it's a common misconception, and I have to think, IMO, that the reason this belief is generally held is because this is what the scientific community is apparently telling us, from what I've been able to gather from all of the contradictory statements I hear from those supposedly knowledgeable about this area of science.
I know. The situation is made all the worse that it's a misconception held by many scientists.

As far as I'm able to perceive, the scientific community absolutely believes that time dilation due to relativistic velocities means that these are not illusory at all -- those people spending all that government grant money are actually telling us that it is real, and they even take it a step further and claim that actual time travel to the past is also possible, basing those claims on the same fundamental theories and equations.
And they will be credible to speak on those subjects if and when they derive a working time machine and/or relativistic spacecraft based on those equations. Until then, the mathematics are easy enough to analyze, and on closer inspection, they do not bear out the more fanciful claims of physicists.

Are you saying the scientific community that has been pushing that for years hasn't really been saying they believe in that stuff?
It's sort of a scientific old wives tale, something people -- even scientists -- tend to accept because they've heard it so many times and they've been told it's true. It's not like they've ever bothered to check; it's not like they ever had a REASON to check.

Put it this way: sixty years from now, filmed on a space station, the broadcast of "Mythbusters: Einstein Special" will shut down the physics departments of every university on Earth for a solid fifty eight minutes.
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 13 2012, 05:01 AM   #23
B.J.
Rear Admiral
 
B.J.'s Avatar
 
Location: Huntsville, AL, USA
Re: TFF Shuttle

^
Uh, you know that the only reason your GPS works the way it does is because we've had to compensate for the relativistic effects of the satellites' motion, right?

As for all that other nonsense, I don't even know where to start....
__________________
B.J. --- bj-o23.deviantart.com
B.J. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 13 2012, 08:14 AM   #24
FKnight
Commander
 
FKnight's Avatar
 
Re: TFF Shuttle

B.J. wrote: View Post
^
Uh, you know that the only reason your GPS works the way it does is because we've had to compensate for the relativistic effects of the satellites' motion, right?

As for all that other nonsense, I don't even know where to start....
That gets stated a lot by pro-relativists, but it's not actually true. Determining your location via GPS is based on the differences between the time signals of various satellites and not in any way based on the difference between a satellite time signal and the device's Earth surface local time, as is commonly incorrectly believed. http://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/gps.htm

GPS computes time differences between satellites all moving at the same speed relative to each other. GPS doesn't care what time it is where you're standing relative to the satellites. Relativity is irrelevant to GPS.
__________________
"You have been examined. Your ship must be destroyed. We make assumption you have a deity, or deities, or some such beliefs which comfort you. We therefore grant you ten Earth time periods known as minutes to make preparations."
FKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 13 2012, 03:40 PM   #25
The Librarian
Commodore
 
Re: TFF Shuttle

FKnight wrote: View Post
B.J. wrote: View Post
^
Uh, you know that the only reason your GPS works the way it does is because we've had to compensate for the relativistic effects of the satellites' motion, right?

As for all that other nonsense, I don't even know where to start....
That gets stated a lot by pro-relativists, but it's not actually true. Determining your location via GPS is based on the differences between the time signals of various satellites and not in any way based on the difference between a satellite time signal and the device's Earth surface local time, as is commonly incorrectly believed. http://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/gps.htm

GPS computes time differences between satellites all moving at the same speed relative to each other. GPS doesn't care what time it is where you're standing relative to the satellites. Relativity is irrelevant to GPS.
No, you still have to compensate for relativistic differences between the satellites and the receivers, no matter what your conspiracy-theory website says. Given that the writer doesn't even believe that stars have fusion reactions inside them or that gravitational lensing occurs, I don't think it's a credible source. Here's a page that describes how it actually works, written by someone who has been directly involved in running GPS.
The Librarian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 13 2012, 06:18 PM   #26
publiusr
Commodore
 
Re: TFF Shuttle

The gravitational collapse and electric universe types are just young earther creationists going after mainstream science.
publiusr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 14 2012, 04:31 AM   #27
FKnight
Commander
 
FKnight's Avatar
 
Re: TFF Shuttle

The Librarian wrote: View Post
No, you still have to compensate for relativistic differences between the satellites and the receivers, no matter what your conspiracy-theory website says. Given that the writer doesn't even believe that stars have fusion reactions inside them or that gravitational lensing occurs, I don't think it's a credible source. Here's a page that describes how it actually works, written by someone who has been directly involved in running GPS.
All the guys' whacked-out conspiracies notwithstanding .. the concept of triangulation hasn't changed.

And I could equally call a bunch of scientists who think that empty space can bend a bunch of nuts too.

* shrug *
__________________
"You have been examined. Your ship must be destroyed. We make assumption you have a deity, or deities, or some such beliefs which comfort you. We therefore grant you ten Earth time periods known as minutes to make preparations."
FKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 14 2012, 06:15 AM   #28
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: TFF Shuttle

B.J. wrote: View Post
^
Uh, you know that the only reason your GPS works the way it does is because we've had to compensate for the relativistic effects of the satellites' motion, right?
Wrong. Turns out the clocks on GPS satellites are periodically re-synchronized with the ground clocks anyway (every thirty days, I'm told). Even if they weren't, the actual delay due to relativistic time dilation is about 200 picoseconds; this is an order of magnitude less than the inherent delay from electrical propagation in the receiver's actual antenna, which ISN'T accounted for, and cannot be.

Others already beat me to it, but like a lot of things related to relativity, there's a lot more myth than fact floating around.


The Librarian wrote: View Post
FKnight wrote: View Post
B.J. wrote: View Post
^
Uh, you know that the only reason your GPS works the way it does is because we've had to compensate for the relativistic effects of the satellites' motion, right?

As for all that other nonsense, I don't even know where to start....
That gets stated a lot by pro-relativists, but it's not actually true. Determining your location via GPS is based on the differences between the time signals of various satellites and not in any way based on the difference between a satellite time signal and the device's Earth surface local time, as is commonly incorrectly believed. http://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/gps.htm

GPS computes time differences between satellites all moving at the same speed relative to each other. GPS doesn't care what time it is where you're standing relative to the satellites. Relativity is irrelevant to GPS.
No, you still have to compensate for relativistic differences between the satellites and the receivers
You don't actually "have" to, since the only applicable affect is due to gravity and the velocity of the satellites is irrelevant. The resulting error would still be a handful of centimeters even if it wasn't compensated for (which is still considerably higher than it would be if you account for special relativity).

Mind you, I'm not saying the GPS system doesn't contain an algorithm to account for relativistic time dilation. I'm saying that if they do, they hardly DEPEND on it, and would in fact be just as accurate without it. Like the Twin Paradox, it's just another piece of relativity mythology that nobody ever bothers to examine closely.
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!

Last edited by Crazy Eddie; October 14 2012 at 07:00 AM.
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 14 2012, 10:55 AM   #29
Bry_Sinclair
Commodore
 
Bry_Sinclair's Avatar
 
Location: Along the border of Talarian space
Re: TFF Shuttle

Star System warp is something that they never seem that consistent on. In BOBW they slow down, in TMP they say they have to risk going to warp to get to V'Ger quicker, and in the episode where Bashir is revealed as a Changeling, Dax seems distraught that Kira suggests going to warp as they could fly into the star.

Whilst in TVH they go to warp not only in the Sol System for the slingshot, but with the planets atmosphere. Then in ENT we see the NX-01 warp out after barely clearing spacedock.

I would think that after the subspace damage warp causes was discovered, a ban would be placed on all warp travel in systems (especially inhabited ones), so as to not damage local ecosystems, etc.
__________________
Avatar: Captain Susanna Leijten, U.S.S. Silverfin NCC-4470, Border Service Third Cutter Squadron
Manip by: FltCpt. Bossco (STPMA)
Bry_Sinclair is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 14 2012, 04:04 PM   #30
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TFF Shuttle

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Star System warp is something that they never seem that consistent on. In BOBW they slow down,
But they do stay FTL all the way to the intercept at Earth.

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
in TMP they say they have to risk going to warp to get to V'Ger quicker,
With untested engines. The wormhole accident resulted from the unbalanced engines.

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
and in the episode where Bashir is revealed as a Changeling, Dax seems distraught that Kira suggests going to warp as they could fly into the star.
I think that was "By Inferno's Light". Dax did seem to balk at that although Kira didn't think it would be a problem. However, they've had runabouts at warp in the system as well so this might be specific to the Defiant.
DAX: Its shields are holding.
KIRA: How can that be?
DAX: Looks like someone's been doing some modifications to the Yukon. I'm also picking up large amounts of trilithium, tekasite, and protomatter on board.
KIRA: A bomb. If it explodes inside the sun
DAX: It could trigger a supernova. Wipe out the entire fleet, the station
KIRA: And Bajor. We have to use the tractor beams.
DAX: We're too far away.
KIRA: Wanna bet? Take us to warp.
DAX: Inside a solar system?
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:40 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.