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Old October 11 2012, 09:32 AM   #61
teacake
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Re: Tuvix - dumbest character in star trek history?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
And I think we are moving a tad off topic.
Not really, Tuvix's fate if he had remained unmurdered is affected by how pon farr came to be integral to Vulcans.
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Last edited by teacake; October 11 2012 at 09:42 AM.
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Old October 11 2012, 09:33 AM   #62
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Re: Tuvix - dumbest character in star trek history?

Romulans do it everyday.

Although.

Spock without his marbles knocked up Saavik.

But his body might have been restepping the familiar path it took the first time around.
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Old October 11 2012, 09:36 AM   #63
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Re: Tuvix - dumbest character in star trek history?

The 7 year bit has to be brainwashing with a trigger of some kind. Otherwise the fail Vulcans, the ones that are secretly wacking off and not confessing it would find their pon farr delayed.
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Old October 11 2012, 09:37 AM   #64
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Re: Tuvix - dumbest character in star trek history?

teacock wrote: View Post
So pon farr is only a response to the repression. If you took a Vulcan male baby and raised it with zero Vulcan influence it would not go through pon farr?
Recall.

Pon far can also be quelled by winning or losing a fight to the death.

Sex and killing.

No difference.
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Old October 11 2012, 09:41 AM   #65
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Re: Tuvix - dumbest character in star trek history?

Eh, I always thought that was pretty stupid not that I'm arguing with canon here. But I don't think being in the V'Shar and possibly assassinating people is going to stave off pon farr. It seems it can be quelled as you say by sex of killing but staved off possibly not. Which brings us back to the brainwashing or salmon.
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Old October 11 2012, 10:29 AM   #66
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Re: Tuvix - dumbest character in star trek history?

Here's another stupid theory.

In the beginning, after the age of enlightenment, the Vulcans created the life of pure logic. It was awesome. However... How many decades were they going to get off on this before they noticed that no one was fucking and there were no children, ipso facto no new next generation?

The species was fucked.

Doomed even.

An artificial widget had to be introduced to force these nerds to copulate.

Pon far is the ultimate countermeasure to the selfcockblock.
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Old October 11 2012, 11:05 AM   #67
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Re: Tuvix - dumbest character in star trek history?

And the pon farr continues the need for the repression because their culture steeps them in deep embarrassment about it. And it's also seemingly not very fun but violent and exhausting and terrifying. If they actually enjoyed it they might question repressing everything for another 7 years. It's quite a neat set up.
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Old October 11 2012, 11:22 AM   #68
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Re: Tuvix - dumbest character in star trek history?

Romulans have an Empire which straddles half the beta quadrant.

The Vulcans can barely full up one planet.

Rampant emotions lead to nuclear war my ass.

It's all about resources.

Too many people not enough shit.

Controlling emotion is about removing the sex urge, shrinking the population and creating the necessary excess utility required to fund a utopia, thus assuring the end of war and the survival of the species.

It's all really obvious if you just take a second to think about it.
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Old October 11 2012, 05:09 PM   #69
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Re: Tuvix - dumbest character in star trek history?

But you can replicate shit.
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Old October 11 2012, 09:44 PM   #70
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Re: Tuvix - dumbest character in star trek history?

I think he means in old days, they society developed pre replicators that way. Not much resources on a desert planet, no way off the planet, have to keep the population down.
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Old October 11 2012, 10:27 PM   #71
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Re: Tuvix - dumbest character in star trek history?

The age of Enlightenment was the final (nuclear)war between the Surakian (who was still alive at the time)Vulcans and the Romulans which happened in the 4th century BC (earth time), which is when Rome was really starting to get on it's feet and Socrates was executed for diddling his (adult?) students. We saw Archer have a dream about this, (katra sponsored VISION.) where he met Surak, and this also dates to that telepathic WMD Picard was looking for in TNG Gambit that was rendered useless if you didn't have violent thoughts for it to use against you as a catalyst inside your soul.

At the end of this war.

After winning or losing.

The Romulans left Vulcan.

In space ships.

Coexistence is for chumps.

(in TOS some god says in Return Tomorrow that Vulcans had been in space for half a million years.)

You could say that the Romulans lost and ran away as refugees, but how could millions of Romulan astronauts trek out into unknown space to form hundreds of colonies after their homeworlds biosphere had been wrecked by thousands of nuclear explosions in population centres? But frankly if they could have just left easily... Why start/fight a nuclear war? Did the Saurakian Vulcans start the war? but if the Saurakian Vulcans had won the war, what were they going to do with the millions if not billions of surviving Romulans?

Eviction or execution?

The only way that the Romulans would have been able to leave, using half the planets natural resources to build massive space arks, is if they won the war and still controlled those resources, but Vulcan was a much shittier planet after the war not worth keeping and couldn't support as much life as it used to be able to, so the sliver of the population left behind to die on the now desert world of Vulcan were the Surak worshipping Vulcans.

2000 years before the invention of replicators.

Hell, if you go by TOS, when the Romulans first met Humanity, in the 22nd century, they hadn't invented warp Drive yet... So 18 centuries earlier the Romulans must have colonized world after world in impulse powered generational ships, where it took them decades to slip between worlds instead of days, this is not a lifeplan some one with choices sets out on.

Oh.

If the Saurakian Vulcans won the age of enlightenment, they might have forced/only allowed the the Romulan refugees to use the highly irradiated metal from the bombsites to build their massive space arks. I mean that shit had to be cleared and it was valueless and poison, it would have fucked up the planet if it wasn't kicked off the planet screwing up the water table and food chain for more generations than it should have since they had the technology, if not the will to clean it all up or eject it into space... Which explains the forehead mutations.

The space arks were toxically irradiated.

Gosh.

Either the Romulans didn't have a choice or the Saurakian Vulcans were assholes still trying to kill the Romulans with "kindness" like the yanks did with those smallpox blankets to the Indians.
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Old October 11 2012, 10:28 PM   #72
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Re: Tuvix - dumbest character in star trek history?

teacock wrote: View Post
I think he means in old days, they society developed pre replicators that way. Not much resources on a desert planet, no way off the planet, have to keep the population down.
Maybe that's why the Romulans left. They wanted to have sex. This would also explain why they have an entire empire full of planets.
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Old October 12 2012, 02:27 AM   #73
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Re: Tuvix - dumbest character in star trek history?

That's a nice run through Guy. I know I've read these speculations on the timing before but I always forget how long it's been since they had space travel. They either really hit a wall (perhaps the atrophying of curiosity was their undoing?) OR at some point most races just plateau and advancements become less about faster and bigger. Because they've spent seemingly many thousands of years with not much development. Of course if you see no point in exploration you're not going to be urging your species into dangerous new territory. Maybe the big adventure of repression slowed them significantly.
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Old October 12 2012, 02:43 AM   #74
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Re: Tuvix - dumbest character in star trek history?

If you believe the Shadows from Babylon 5, technical and social evolution only comes from war.
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Old October 12 2012, 10:58 PM   #75
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Re: Tuvix - dumbest character in star trek history?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
If you believe the Shadows from Babylon 5, technical and social evolution only comes from war.
But if you believe The Vorlons, it comes through long periods of Order and Peace.
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