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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old October 8 2012, 10:23 PM   #16
SchwEnt
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Re: Shuttlecraft - curved edges on top?

Perhaps. But if they have tractor beams and magnetized and anti-grav techs, why the need for physical grapple structures?

I guess I just expect that if they were meant to be physical attachment rails, they'd be more like a solid I-beam rather than slightly curved and tapering edges.
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Old October 8 2012, 10:32 PM   #17
MacLeod
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Re: Shuttlecraft - curved edges on top?

Just because something has to engineered that way today, it doesn't mean it would have to be that way in the 23rd century.


Advacnes in technology, new stronger materials which can do the same job but me thinner. etc...
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Old October 9 2012, 02:18 AM   #18
Albertese
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Re: Shuttlecraft - curved edges on top?

gastrof wrote: View Post
It seems the structures seen in Star Trek II came, not from the Enterprise (any version), but from the Botany Bay itself.

That was how Chekov realized who they'd encounter if they didn't get out of there fast. He saw what looked like a seatbelt with the words "Botany Bay" on the buckle.
I disagree. The cargo pods are clearly TMP Starfleet issue. We must assume that such pods existed on the TOS Enterprise. There are problems with having them be from the Botany Bay. If they were antique pods, then Chekov and Terrel both should have spotted them for what they were more or less immediately. Instead, Terrel notes they are cargo carriers. His surprise is in that there were cargo carriers at all, not that they were antique. Chekov catches on when he sees the "BOTANY BAY" buckle. What's that buckle doing there? maybe it was brought from the old ship before it was cast aside by Kahn and his goons when they had charge of the Enterprise in "Space Seed." But, why would the Botany Bay have labeled belt buckles anyway? Maybe one of the marooned guys made it.

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Old October 9 2012, 03:34 AM   #19
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Re: Shuttlecraft - curved edges on top?

Albertese wrote: View Post
. . . But, why would the Botany Bay have labeled belt buckles anyway?
Maybe it's the equivalent of something like this?

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Old October 9 2012, 05:56 AM   #20
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Re: Shuttlecraft - curved edges on top?

I came up with a cheesy idea: what if the curved upper "tailfins" on the Class F Shuttlecraft were designed that way so the shuttle could be assembled in different configurations? (Here's the cheesy part: remember the "extensional boosting units" used in the SPACE: 1999 episode "The Metamorph"?)

Maybe the shuttle craft parts come from a "cold storage" parts bin below hangar. numerous shuttle hulls are stored there in pieces, ready for quick assembly. A typical Connie mission could call for four fully-assembled Class F's at any given time, but the parts bin has many more ready for either repairs of the fully-assembled-four or to assemble more in special circumstances.

Let's say there's a number of different configurations that can be derived from the same set of parts, from travel pods to asteroid prospector scouts to recon party base-camp ships to "fighter" probe-ships. So maybe there's a Class G long-range scout (like in TAS) and also a Class H cargo shuttle. All you have to do is pull the right parts from the bin and assemble them properly; maybe a Class E needs the nacelles attached on top, hence the tailfins.

If memory serves, the TAS long-range scoutship used by Spock, Sulu and Uhura had a rear hatch. Maybe the tailfins provide a handy slot for that type of scoutship to house its impulse engine to make clearance for the hatch.
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Old October 9 2012, 09:08 AM   #21
Timo
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Re: Shuttlecraft - curved edges on top?

The cargo pods are clearly TMP Starfleet issue.
...With various Starfleet and UFP symbology on them, too. Let's see if I can figure out how to link to another thread...

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=149571

It doesn't appear that the standard TOS shuttlecraft would have been much involved in providing Khan with his hut. Nor would any of the craft seen in TAS have been much good in that respect, unless we go for the external carriage idea. But we could just as easily postulate that a workbee train can be equipped with a tug more substantial than a workbee, and perhaps with clip-on wings as well, for deploying this package.

The simplest answer to the delivery question might be dropping, of course. Orbital velocity of the package could be killed by the starship, after which the package would drop at a relatively slow pace, slowed down further by small rocket engines or antigravs. It would then reach the denser parts of the atmosphere and continue to decelerate (or maintain slow rate of descent) with parachutes or, again, antigravs. No need for complexities like heat shielding or aerodynamics, then.

We don't really know how a TOS shuttle lands, either. Obviously, physical parachutes are never seen, but possibly antigravity is key to those landings as well. Aerodynamics could still be a concern whenever the shuttle engages in forward flight.

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Old October 10 2012, 01:04 AM   #22
Albertese
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Re: Shuttlecraft - curved edges on top?

Tractor beams.

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Old October 10 2012, 06:59 AM   #23
Timo
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Re: Shuttlecraft - curved edges on top?

Indeed, from DS9 "The Ship", we learn that tractor beams are a perfectly good way to lift an entire spacecraft from surface to orbit. But this makes one wonder...

When transporters and shuttles fail, why doesn't Starfleet use tractor beams as a standard method for extracting or inserting landing parties? Just step into this cabin-free elevator in your spacesuit, call for a "beam-down", and float gently from orbit all the way down to the porch of the local Governor or Ataman or Quangoner or whatnot. If he proves to be the standard antagonist type, call for "beam-up" and float just as gently out of the reach of his henchmen, all the way back up to the starship.

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Old October 10 2012, 01:22 PM   #24
Forbin
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Re: Shuttlecraft - curved edges on top?

That would work, but I think it would take quite a while unless you don't mind traveling a few thousand MPH.

Let's say the ship is in synchronus orbit over the area and tractors a person to orbit. That's 29,000 miles to travel! I hope the spacesuit has a pee tube!
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Old October 10 2012, 01:53 PM   #25
Timo
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Re: Shuttlecraft - curved edges on top?

The visuals suggest an orbital height more like 1,000 km, though. And they further suggest that "standard orbit" involves tight turns, rather than the insignificantly small attitude changes during a camera pass that would result from a freefall orbit at that height. So we're probably witnessing the ship flying figure-eights over the landing party...

But yeah, a thousand klicks would probably take the better part of an hour, with initial subsonic speeds. Although it doesn't seem as if the victim of a tractor beam would be subject to much acceleration in the general case, and might be safely whisked from zero to high speed in a short time.

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Old October 10 2012, 03:03 PM   #26
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Re: Shuttlecraft - curved edges on top?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Zombie Redshirt wrote: View Post
Because every great utility vehicle has a roof rack option.
Hadn't though of that, but that might be exactly what it is. Like a picatinny rail on a gun, or the clamps that mount a cargo container to a flat bed.

You could attach phasers, torpedo launcher, sensors, fuel tanks, skis, or just boxes of supplies to the roof.

The ones on the bottom the same deal. The shuttle could take off, land on top of a cargo container, grab on, and take off again.

Starting to like this idea Zombie Redshirt.

Like the rollbar on DS9 Runabouts? Not a bad ideal. And makes the TOS shuttles more handy for long-range exploration starships like the Enterprise.
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Old October 11 2012, 12:18 AM   #27
MacLeod
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Re: Shuttlecraft - curved edges on top?

Forbin wrote: View Post
That would work, but I think it would take quite a while unless you don't mind traveling a few thousand MPH.

Let's say the ship is in synchronus orbit over the area and tractors a person to orbit. That's 29,000 miles to travel! I hope the spacesuit has a pee tube!
I hate to picky put that's not correct. It's actually ~36 000km (22 000 miles) from the surface of the Earth. The 29 000miles ( 42 000km) is from the centre of the Earth.

Also the height of the geosynchronous orbit would vary from planet to planet.
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Old October 11 2012, 05:36 AM   #28
Albertese
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Re: Shuttlecraft - curved edges on top?

Perhaps tractor beams are too rough for guys in simple spacesuits. Recall that the tractor beam was responsible for smashing a vintage 1960's jet fighter. you'd need a pretty robust space suit to beat the structure of a jet.

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Old October 11 2012, 09:21 AM   #29
Timo
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Re: Shuttlecraft - curved edges on top?

Good point. But building an elevator cabin that differs from the standard shuttle by omitting all power plants, engines and their fuel is still an attractive idea... Or, if one isn't stingy with tractor power use, one could tractor the shuttles down and back up as a default, and only use their onboard engines in emergencies. Who knows, it might even save an ounce or two of antimatter overall.

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Old October 11 2012, 10:52 AM   #30
Patrickivan
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Re: Shuttlecraft - curved edges on top?

gastrof wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
I just wondered today how they moved the cargo containers for Khan & company down to Ceti Alpha V
Unlikely as it seems, they might have been flown down in the configuration we saw used for space maneuvering, with a flimsy "spine" connecting the pods and with a workbee clamped at the bow.

That is, the set was built with the "spine" in place, up to and including the mounting for the (missing) workbee!

It does stretch credibility, though, that the "workbee train" would be capable of such feats. So perhaps we should once again politely but firmly ignore author intent and decide that the bunch of six containers (or, rather, three double-width ones) was beamed down with a cargo transporter, but with the "train" system attached for some unknown reason. Perhaps it distributes power to the containers, and was considered handier than a bunch of cables in that task even planetside? Or perhaps its supposedly feeble maneuvering thrusters can still move the containers across short distances, and Kirk decided to give Khan the option of relocating his camp later.

We are probably supposed to ignore the fact that Khan's containers are slightly larger than the ones seen in ST:TMP. Perhaps the greater interior height can be explained by Khan kicking out the bottom plates and digging pits in the ground, then placing the bottomless containers over the pits (a fairly standard way to build huts in general)?

A dedicated cargo shuttle would probably be a wholly enclosed craft, not placing the "rolling door" corrugated surfaces at the mercy of the elements during atmospheric flight...

Timo Saloniemi
It seems the structures seen in Star Trek II came, not from the Enterprise (any version), but from the Botany Bay itself.

That was how Chekov realized who they'd encounter if they didn't get out of there fast. He saw what looked like a seatbelt with the words "Botany Bay" on the buckle.
That's exactly what I always believed since I first saw the movie... Also in part because it looked older than anything seen in TOS or TWOK.
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