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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate The Eternal Tide.
Outstanding 82 49.40%
Above Average 50 30.12%
Average 27 16.27%
Below Average 2 1.20%
Poor 5 3.01%
Voters: 166. You may not vote on this poll

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Old October 7 2012, 08:43 PM   #451
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Trekmovie.com has a review up: http://trekmovie.com/2012/10/07/book...-eternal-tide/

I'm still waiting for my trek package from amazon.com with The Eternal Tide, Brinkmanship and Fallen Gods, so I haven't made up my mind about this book, but TBH I was never a Janeway fan and I'm a bit disappointed to see her back.
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Old October 7 2012, 09:11 PM   #452
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

RonG wrote: View Post
Trekmovie.com has a review up: http://trekmovie.com/2012/10/07/book...-eternal-tide/

I'm still waiting for my trek package from amazon.com with The Eternal Tide, Brinkmanship and Fallen Gods, so I haven't made up my mind about this book, but TBH I was never a Janeway fan and I'm a bit disappointed to see her back.
I agree with most of what is written in Trekmovie's review. Beyer does an amazing job with the characterization of the VOY crew - the best I've ever seen - but I really don't think that this story needed to be told, or at the very least, not in this manner.
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Old October 7 2012, 10:12 PM   #453
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I never understood that term. This is fiction, none of the stories "need" to be told.
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Old October 9 2012, 10:42 AM   #454
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I'm still waiting for the novel to arrive, but since I found out about a certain character's "change of posthumous status", my expectations have been lowered.
Very much so.

I was never a fan of the VOY TV series - I found the characters to be flat and one-dimensional compared to other Trek casts, and Janeway in particular seemed quite obnoxious IMO.

My feeling towards the novels at the time were very much a reflection of my feeling towards the TV series – The only VOY novels I really liked were Echoes and to a lesser degree Mosaic (The Janeway hero-worship irked me even then.. I get that she's a WOMAN! And a CAPTAIN!!... so she's the BEST!!!! )

In any case, I tried Christie Golden's VOY Relaunch novels, and found them to be utterly immature and basically written for the Teenage Girls audience (not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just not my cup of tea, to say the least). The entire cast / crew acted like unprofessional morons and the plotlines were horrendous IMO.

It should come as no surprise that Janeway's death in Before Dishonor didn’t disturb me. On the contrary – I was ready to get rid of this arrogant, know-it-all, wrongly promoted b***h . The Janeway fan backlash coupled with the arrival of new voices on the Trek Lit board demanding her return and threatening with boycott, seemed like a collection of childish tantrums, and the threads concerning Janeway were always good for a chuckle and an uncomfortable laugh.

And then came Full Circle.

On the heels of Destiny and A Singular Destiny, Kirsten Beyer managed to make me care about the characters for the first time ever, while crafting a fine plotline. The "one-two punch" of Full Circle and Unworthy actually made me a VOY reader and started this cast and "setting" / series in a great new direction. Yes, the characters were still a bit too "whiny" and "Soap Opera-ish" in my book, but it was actually compelling to read.




I'll read the novel (it's already on its way from Amazon.com, along with Brinkmanship and Fallen Gods) and form a complete opinion, but it sure seems like I'm done with VOY after this one.
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Old October 9 2012, 10:47 AM   #455
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Just Finished The Eternal Tide. One of the best Voyager re-launch Novels yet, Can't wait for where the series goes next. Janeway Coming back is believeable and well handled with other charactors doubting at first that she is back. Thank you to Kirsten Beyer for continuing the franchise is such a believable way.
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Old October 9 2012, 02:50 PM   #456
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

RonG, I think Eternal Tide is my least favorite of Beyer's books but I think it is still a solid story where the "resurrection" is well handled and is not even the major plot. I can say that, because I've read it.

You cannot judge a book and your outlook of the entire series based upon your expectation of a book you haven't read. Doing so, speaks more negatively about you than it does about Beyer and of the Voyager series.
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Old October 9 2012, 03:02 PM   #457
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
RonG, I think Eternal Tide is my least favorite of Beyer's books but I think it is still a solid story where the "resurrection" is well handled and is not even the major plot. I can say that, because I've read it.

You cannot judge a book and your outlook of the entire series based upon your expectation of a book you haven't read. Doing so, speaks more negatively about you than it does about Beyer and of the Voyager series.
I wasn't judging the entire series (arc) and certainly not Ms. Beyer - note what I wrote about Full Circle and Unwritten.

I also wasn't judging the book per se, but rather a significant development which influences the entire setting and has been spoiled and discussed on this very thread.

It is my opinion that this very same development changes (reverts) the series into a status quo that I personally don't care for and I think it's perfectly legitimate to expect to be done with VOY after this novel.

As I've written, I *will* read this novel and *will* form a final view on it, but *based on what I've read about it*, it's my current opinion - I don't think this speaks about me either way, other than my taste in Trek Lit.
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Old October 9 2012, 06:34 PM   #458
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

^You may want to go back in this thread and read Kirsten's remarks. Voyager is not going back to the "status quo"
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Old October 9 2012, 11:48 PM   #459
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

The "development" of Janeway returning doesn't have to be bad or a step backwards. I didn't like it when Worf was back in the TNG setting. I thought he was regressing, especially since he was an ambassador. But it has worked well for the character and the series. Look at how many characters DRG III is returning to DS9; it feels like a regression to me but I'm glad to see my favorite characters in a situation where they can have some well written stories. Is DS9 returning back to the series status quo? Certainly not. Both DS9 and Voyager just crossed lines into new eras where they CAN go terribly wrong but I trust the writers of both series enough to not let us down. On the other hand, Enterprise just ended an era where I think it will lie dead for a long time.
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Old October 10 2012, 01:45 AM   #460
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I agree that Janeway's return from the Q Continuum doesn't have to be necessarily bad or good. Beyer has shown that she is more than capable of developing the other characters--and there is nothing to indicate that they would regress just because Janeway returns. In fact, when Janeway was present in the first half of Full Circle, she didn't dominate the plot in any way, and I don't see that she would have to do so in future novels.
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Old October 10 2012, 06:56 AM   #461
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
The "development" of Janeway returning doesn't have to be bad or a step backwards. I didn't like it when Worf was back in the TNG setting. I thought he was regressing, especially since he was an ambassador. But it has worked well for the character and the series. Look at how many characters DRG III is returning to DS9; it feels like a regression to me but I'm glad to see my favorite characters in a situation where they can have some well written stories. Is DS9 returning back to the series status quo? Certainly not. Both DS9 and Voyager just crossed lines into new eras where they CAN go terribly wrong but I trust the writers of both series enough to not let us down. On the other hand, Enterprise just ended an era where I think it will lie dead for a long time.
Don;t get me started on ENT - the Relaunch novels were not to my liking, though they had quite a bit of potential. I agree that we may have seen the last of ENT for the foreseeable future.

IMO DS9 is quite far from the TV series, cast and setting-wise. VOY, OTOH and from what I understand, is back in the DQ with its full cast (sans Tuvok for now at least).

AuntKate wrote: View Post
I agree that Janeway's return from the Q Continuum doesn't have to be necessarily bad or good. Beyer has shown that she is more than capable of developing the other characters--and there is nothing to indicate that they would regress just because Janeway returns. In fact, when Janeway was present in the first half of Full Circle, she didn't dominate the plot in any way, and I don't see that she would have to do so in future novels.
I have nothing against Beyer's ability to develop the cast of characters - far from it. It's just that the very idea of reverting the setting (if not the series proper) to an earlier status quo (whether caused by fan reaction, editorial demand or other reasons entirely) doesn't make me want to follow the Janeway-led VOY arc/s.

I don't presume to know the reasons for this development, and I suspect we'll never get the full story on this, I just don't like the character of Janeway and the VOY stories I read with her in charge.

That's not to say that if I come across an interesting premise for a VOY novel, I'll boycott it - that would be stupid IMO. Just where once I followed Beyer's VOY novels without question, I'll now be a more discerning customer.
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Old October 10 2012, 03:23 PM   #462
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Finished it this morning and was another great Voyager novel, not as good as the previous three, but still pretty damn good. Was disappointed to see the ships destroyed as I liked the idea of the fleet of ships so I hope that dynamic is restored soon, with some of the characters saved. Sad to see Eden go, but I think her time had come. Can't wait for the next book.
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Old October 10 2012, 10:02 PM   #463
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Kirsten Beyer wrote: View Post
Oh, and somewhere a long ways back, someone noted that they felt the quality of the book was related to the fact that I possess a Bachelor of Arts degree....and I nearly fell out of my chair. I was momentarily overcome by a vision of myself entering a room of hostile adversaries only to say "Everybody stand the fuck back. I've got a B.A. in my pocket and I know how to use it!"

You guys are awesome.

Best,
Kirsten Beyer
The quality of the book has to do (IMHO) with the fact that you have a good grasp of the characters and you have a good way of telling a story that incorporates this. Your Voyager books have been far better then the Golden mess we ended up with. You took what was a Titanic mess and managed to patch the holes, drain the water and keep the ship afloat.

As for being awesome, we are only praising your books because you did such a good job writing them and making them enjoyable.
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Old October 11 2012, 07:49 AM   #464
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JWolf...thanks for that. Really nice to hear. The "awesomness" I was referring to was not so much the praise, though it is always appreciated, but more the surprising things that often come up in these discussions. It reminds me of how many different ways there are to look at a thing and is incredibly refreshing when I've spent too long buried in an outline or manuscript.

And Enterpriserules...yes, I read your review and was delighted that some of the more metaphysical aspects of the story worked for you. It can be a tough line to walk and I think a lot of people aren't comfortable going there. It's supposed to be "science" fiction after all. But in this case, given where we started and where we had to go, the spiritual aspects kept resonating so I decided to trust it. It's not something that every story calls for, but it is an aspect of humanity that I find every bit as interesting and worthy of exploration as any other if the context is appropriate and it serves the story.

Everybody else...

We all knew before this book came out that there were a number of people on the planet who could not, under any circumstances, be moved to read a Voyager book that did not feature a living, breathing Kathryn Janeway. In fact, we've met many of them over the past few years. It should not, then, surprise you that now, there will be a number of people who, likewise, are not inclined to read stories that do feature a living, breathing Kathryn Janeway. For any number of reasons. It's a fair choice to make and any effort to disuade them is not likely meet with much success.

I knew this going in. I'm okay with it. Everyone has a right to spend their money, or much more valuable time only on those things they believe will entertain or satisfy them as readers. At the end of the day, the reasons why this story was written don't matter. The story works or doesn't work on its merits for any given reader. Full stop.

I spent a lot of time in the past trying to explain the reasons we were exploring Janeway's death to those who were angered by it, and it never made the slightest bit of difference. In fact, my efforts tended to further alienate those individuals. They formed opinions of me that bear absolutely no resemblence to the genuine article, and usually decided that I was simply lying to them, or playing politics.

What I learned through that process was that no amount of explanation or justification or defense of my position was a worthwhile way to spend my time, because it changed nothing. So now I find myself facing a new group of disappointed people who I have already angered by writing what I have. And all I know is that to try and defend myself or justify my choices would be equally meaningless.

I am content to let those who are unhappy or angry or disappointed say what they need to say. The usernames may not be the same. But the perspective isn't anything I haven't seen before. Nothing I can tell you about why I made the choices I did is going to make the story work better for you.

And who knows...maybe as the story continues, current objections might seem less objectionable, and current fears may be allayed.

Or not.

Either way...understand that when I send a story out into the world, I hope that it will be met in the spirit in which it was intended but I am not permitted to be surprised when it isn't. That part is out of my control. The best I can hope for might be a little faith, even from those I have disappointed, particularly when I had managed to grudingly earn it in the past. I've learned again over these past few weeks, that in some cases, this is just too much to ask. When people feel angry, or wronged, or that their trust has been broken, they can often be unkind. But I sleep just fine at night, knowing that I have done what I can to keep this story and series alive and compelling. And that nothing I have planned for the future is anything we've seen before. I write these stories from a place of deep love and respect for the characters and their journeys and always with the hope that following the character's adventures will bring the readers something they can't find anywhere else. I think most of my readers sense that, even when they don't understand all of my choices. And to those that don't...

Peace and long life.

Kirsten
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Old October 11 2012, 09:04 AM   #465
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Kirsten Beyer wrote: View Post
We all knew before this book came out that there were a number of people on the planet who could not, under any circumstances, be moved to read a Voyager book that did not feature a living, breathing Kathryn Janeway. In fact, we've met many of them over the past few years. It should not, then, surprise you that now, there will be a number of people who, likewise, are not inclined to read stories that do feature a living, breathing Kathryn Janeway. For any number of reasons. It's a fair choice to make and any effort to disuade them is not likely meet with much success.

I knew this going in. I'm okay with it. Everyone has a right to spend their money, or much more valuable time only on those things they believe will entertain or satisfy them as readers. At the end of the day, the reasons why this story was written don't matter. The story works or doesn't work on its merits for any given reader. Full stop.

I spent a lot of time in the past trying to explain the reasons we were exploring Janeway's death to those who were angered by it, and it never made the slightest bit of difference. In fact, my efforts tended to further alienate those individuals. They formed opinions of me that bear absolutely no resemblence to the genuine article, and usually decided that I was simply lying to them, or playing politics.

What I learned through that process was that no amount of explanation or justification or defense of my position was a worthwhile way to spend my time, because it changed nothing. So now I find myself facing a new group of disappointed people who I have already angered by writing what I have. And all I know is that to try and defend myself or justify my choices would be equally meaningless.

I am content to let those who are unhappy or angry or disappointed say what they need to say. The usernames may not be the same. But the perspective isn't anything I haven't seen before. Nothing I can tell you about why I made the choices I did is going to make the story work better for you.

And who knows...maybe as the story continues, current objections might seem less objectionable, and current fears may be allayed.

Or not.

Either way...understand that when I send a story out into the world, I hope that it will be met in the spirit in which it was intended but I am not permitted to be surprised when it isn't. That part is out of my control. The best I can hope for might be a little faith, even from those I have disappointed, particularly when I had managed to grudingly earn it in the past. I've learned again over these past few weeks, that in some cases, this is just too much to ask. When people feel angry, or wronged, or that their trust has been broken, they can often be unkind. But I sleep just fine at night, knowing that I have done what I can to keep this story and series alive and compelling. And that nothing I have planned for the future is anything we've seen before. I write these stories from a place of deep love and respect for the characters and their journeys and always with the hope that following the character's adventures will bring the readers something they can't find anywhere else. I think most of my readers sense that, even when they don't understand all of my choices. And to those that don't...

Peace and long life.

Kirsten
Kirsten, your comments are very heartfelt and insightful. I think that expressing your opinions / feelings on this board the way you have, serves only to bring you and your readership closer.

As for my comments on this thread and the novel:
I've started the novel yesterday, and so far found it to be engrossing and a very good read. But that doesn't surprise me, based on my opinion of your previous VOY novels.

I just want to clarify my previous posts: I have indeed expressed my disappointment in the decision to bring Janeway back and I fully admit that there's a chance that this will be my final VOY novel for awhile - or not - based on my opinion after reading The Eternal Tide. This, however, does not reflect on your writing, but rather on what I see as an editorial direction I have a hard time connecting with.

With that in mind, I hope to see your name attached to other Trek settings/series, as you've managed to make me care about VOY, and that's quite a hard task

.. so, when are you writing Titan or Enterprise?
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