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Old October 10 2012, 03:13 AM   #61
Nightdiamond
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

Zombie Cheerleader wrote: View Post
Romulus is still there. It's Vulcan that's gone. Vulcans have always been emotional. (Spock especially), there was a spark between Spock and Uhura back in TOS, I'll give you the last one. Though McCoy is the only person who seems to go from cadet to (Lt) Commander. But being a doctor its not unusual.

Why wouldn't people drive cars in the 23rd Century and why would they stop being rude? Rude wasn't unknown in TOS. One might find examples in almost every episode.
Sorry, it was Vulcan, I'm still trying to wrap my head around this movie.

I'll give Mccoy being promoted, because it can happen with medical students out of the academy.

Kirk and the others going from mid cadet to captain--which basically a Colonel, is a little too much to believe.

Spock starts off emotional right off the bat, because he's involved in a pretty intense relationship with Uhura--and no explanation why, other than they're in a relationship.

I like it when Vulcan stay Vulcans and be logical. That's part of their mystique. Every once in a while, they can be emotional due to some crazy situation, but usually they're without emotion.

That's what made Spock interesting.

Given the idea that Vulcans are supposed to have no emotion, how many times do we see Tpal almost naked in a sexually situation, Tuvok nearly going crazy, and Vulcans doing illogical things..

With the car thing, TOS's Kirk was totally unfamiliar with automobiles--Trek frequently tried to show that vehicles didn't use wheels anymore.

The rude thing--the way TNG and TOS saw it, humans talk their way out of conflicts, fighting is for savage people, and humans live in a near Utopian society.

I certainly agree that 24th century people can be just as rude as anyone, but they went on record as clearly distinguishing their behavior from 20th century humans for example.

IMO, Nu Trek is clearly a different Trek continuity from the other series. That's how they'll probably have to format it.
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Old October 10 2012, 04:16 AM   #62
Nerys Myk
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
Zombie Cheerleader wrote: View Post
Romulus is still there. It's Vulcan that's gone. Vulcans have always been emotional. (Spock especially), there was a spark between Spock and Uhura back in TOS, I'll give you the last one. Though McCoy is the only person who seems to go from cadet to (Lt) Commander. But being a doctor its not unusual.

Why wouldn't people drive cars in the 23rd Century and why would they stop being rude? Rude wasn't unknown in TOS. One might find examples in almost every episode.
Sorry, it was Vulcan, I'm still trying to wrap my head around this movie.

I'll give Mccoy being promoted, because it can happen with medical students out of the academy.

Kirk and the others going from mid cadet to captain--which basically a Colonel, is a little too much to believe.
Kirk's the only one. Uhura graduated as a Lt. ( As did Kirk) and remains one. Sulu is a Lieutenant, but I don't think he was in the same class as Kirk. Chekov is an Ensign and might be part of a different class, as well. Scott is Lt. Commander and already on active duty as is Spock.

IIRC, Kirk was about to or already had graduated at the time of Nero's attack. Remember, he told Pike he'd get through the Academy in three years. The Kobayashi Maru test would seem to be for final year or command school cadets based on TWOK. So I don't think he was a "mid cadet".

Spock starts off emotional right off the bat, because he's involved in a pretty intense relationship with Uhura--and no explanation why, other than they're in a relationship.

I like it when Vulcan stay Vulcans and be logical. That's part of their mystique. Every once in a while, they can be emotional due to some crazy situation, but usually they're without emotion.

That's what made Spock interesting.

Given the idea that Vulcans are supposed to have no emotion, how many times do we see Tpal almost naked in a sexually situation, Tuvok nearly going crazy, and Vulcans doing illogical things..
Vulcans don't lack emotions they control them. Under various types of stress that control can and does slip. When Spock was younger ( The Cage, WNMHGB, parts of TOS season 1) his control wasn't as pronounced. ST09 happens around the time of the Cage in the Prime Universe.

Vulcans get interesting when their control is compromised and their logic is challenged. Spock's best episodes are about that.

With the car thing, TOS's Kirk was totally unfamiliar with automobiles--Trek frequently tried to show that vehicles didn't use wheels anymore.
How often did we see ground vehicles in Trek? Starships and spacestations don't really use them, so its unlikely they would show up. Shuttles and transporters are used to get from the surface to space, so who can say if everyday ground vehicles have wheels or not? Picard's dune buggy in NEM did, so they can't be unheard of.

Kirk's familiar.

A Piece of the Action wrote:
KIRK: Wheels, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: A fliwer, Captain.
KIRK: Key in the ignition. Turn the ignition on. And nothing happens. Where's the starter? There's the starter. Yes!
SPOCK: Interesting.
KIRK: (pushing the gear lever and making grinding noises) Oops! Gears.
SPOCK: Yes. Oh. I believe they had a device known as a clutch. Clutch, Captain. Perhaps one of those pedals on the floor.
KIRK: (puts it quietly into gear) I kind of like this. I'm going to get one myself.
(He lets up the clutch, and they go backwards. The car kangaroos elegantly down the street and somehow makes it to JoJo's place.)
SPOCK: Captain, you are an excellent starship commander, but as a taxi driver you leave much to be desired.
KIRK: It was that bad?
But not with the operation of an early 20th Century automobile. There might be a difference between a 1920s flivver and a 1960s Corvette. And the car was an antique, not a "modern" vehicle. People have been to to collect and keep things from previous centuries.

The rude thing--the way TNG and TOS saw it, humans talk their way out of conflicts, fighting is for savage people, and humans live in a near Utopian society.

I certainly agree that 24th century people can be just as rude as anyone, but they went on record as clearly distinguishing their behavior from 20th century humans for example.

IMO, Nu Trek is clearly a different Trek continuity from the other series. That's how they'll probably have to format it.
You need to stop conflating TOS with TNG. Kirk got into a fight in most episodes.(Usually saving the peace and love speech for the final act) He was often rude to people he didn't like. (bureaucrats mostly) Spock and McCoy were always sniping at each other.

Of course its a different continuity, that was the point.
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Old October 10 2012, 03:30 PM   #63
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

Zombie Cheerleader wrote: View Post
You need to stop conflating TOS with TNG. Kirk got into a fight in most episodes.(Usually saving the peace and love speech for the final act) He was often rude to people he didn't like. (bureaucrats mostly) Spock and McCoy were always sniping at each other.

Of course its a different continuity, that was the point.
Agreed. The whole "Utopian" society/everybody is more evolved and civilized business is more of a TNG thing. Things were a bit rougher around the edges back on TOS's final frontier . . . .
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Old October 10 2012, 03:38 PM   #64
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

Or as I once put it when watching a TOS episode with friends, "This is back when they were still -boldly- going..."
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Old October 10 2012, 09:59 PM   #65
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

Zombie Cheerleader wrote: View Post
IIRC, Kirk was about to or already had graduated at the time of Nero's attack. Remember, he told Pike he'd get through the Academy in three years. The Kobayashi Maru test would seem to be for final year or command school cadets based on TWOK. So I don't think he was a "mid cadet".
For most of ST XI, Kirk was a Lieutenant. This is confirmed by the transporter readout screen when they're trying to beam him and Sulu away from the drill.

So it would seem that if the hearing hadn't been interrupted, Kirk would have been formally graduated as a Lieutenant - just like he did in TOS.

In any case, Kirk didn't go from Cadet to Captain - he went from Lieutenant to Captain. Still a big jump, but he only skipped two grades (Lt. Cmdr. and Commander), so it's not THAT big a deal.
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Old October 11 2012, 02:28 AM   #66
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

From what I've gathered, Kirk got suspended as a cadet, in his third year. He wasn't even allowed to board the enterprise with the others when it left.

That either means he had no commission at the time he boarded the Enterprise, it was a writers error, or he actually was listed as a lieutenant even though he was a cadet under academic suspension..

With cars an everything, it will depends on interpretation, and whoever is writing the story.

It's always going to go back and forth.

Up until Nemesis, we don't see any wheeled vehicles, as if to give the message that they were obsolete. Everything was now anti gravity or hovercraft.

Harry Kim, from Picard's time, doesn't recognize a truck, although Picard in Nemesis suddenly breaks out the jeep.

Before that, even in environments similar to the one where Picard used the jeep, they never used wheeled vehicles.

IMO, it was just a fun piece to add in the story, although it seemed awkward and out of place to some of us.

It's not that Kirk doesn't know what a car is, but that automobiles and wheeled vehicles were (considered) obsolete by his time.

In TVH, Kirk himself walked right in front of a fast oncoming cab, as if he didn't understand the concept of oncoming cars and traffic

Last edited by Nightdiamond; October 11 2012 at 02:40 AM.
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Old October 11 2012, 06:12 AM   #67
Nerys Myk
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
From what I've gathered, Kirk got suspended as a cadet, in his third year. He wasn't even allowed to board the enterprise with the others when it left.

That either means he had no commission at the time he boarded the Enterprise, it was a writers error, or he actually was listed as a lieutenant even though he was a cadet under academic suspension..
His third year would have been his last year. He made it through the academy at an accelerated pace. IIRC, they have a three years later title at the start of the "present day" sequence to show that Kirk has made it through the academy in three years just as he promised Pike.

Kirk being a cadet with the rank of Lieutenant is like Saavik, who in TWOK, was a cadet with the rank of Lieutenant. It's not a coincidence they were both taking the Kobayashi Maru.

Why would being under academic suspension preclude him from being a Lieutenant? I would think the only way for him to lose his rank would be if the hearing found him guilty.

With cars an everything, it will depends on interpretation, and whoever is writing the story.

It's always going to go back and forth.

Up until Nemesis, we don't see any wheeled vehicles, as if to give the message that they were obsolete. Everything was now anti gravity or hovercraft.
The car Kirk drove was an antique, not a "modern" vehicle. Just because automobiles are obsolete doesn't mean people don't still own them or know about them. Kirk would know something about cars because his Step-father/Uncle owned one. Of course the Kirk in ST09 has led a different life than the one in TOS. It's possible that TOS Kirk is less familar with wheeled vehicles than ST09 Kirk.

Harry Kim, from Picard's time, doesn't recognize a truck, although Picard in Nemesis suddenly breaks out the jeep.

Before that, even in environments similar to the one where Picard used the jeep, they never used wheeled vehicles.
Kim lived 100 years after Kirk and may not have known anyone who owned an antique truck or studied history. I know what a chariot and stagecoach are.

Even when they land in shuttles they mostly wind up hoofing it. For some reason no forms of ground transportation are standard issue for landing parties.


IMO, it was just a fun piece to add in the story, although it seemed awkward and out of place to some of us.
That it was, but not because it was a wheeled vehicle.

It's not that Kirk doesn't know what a car is, but that automobiles and wheeled vehicles were (considered) obsolete by his time.
So, he's not totally unfamiliar with them after all.

In TVH, Kirk himself walked right in front of a fast oncoming cab, as if he didn't understand the concept of oncoming cars and traffic
I've seen people who live with autos everyday do the same.
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Old October 11 2012, 08:48 AM   #68
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

I'm sure many missed it, but at Starfleet Academy we saw this drive by:

Although indended to be a futuristic car from 2258, it's actually from the here and now: www.aptera.com
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Old October 11 2012, 03:42 PM   #69
Nerys Myk
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

Then there's this:



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Old October 11 2012, 05:54 PM   #70
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

Okay, that's cooler.
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Old October 12 2012, 07:08 PM   #71
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Zombie Cheerleader wrote: View Post
You need to stop conflating TOS with TNG. Kirk got into a fight in most episodes.(Usually saving the peace and love speech for the final act) He was often rude to people he didn't like. (bureaucrats mostly) Spock and McCoy were always sniping at each other.

Of course its a different continuity, that was the point.
Agreed. The whole "Utopian" society/everybody is more evolved and civilized business is more of a TNG thing. Things were a bit rougher around the edges back on TOS's final frontier . . . .
DS9 also makes the assumption that the Federation is a paradise but does not assume that Starfleet can act like they live in paradise when they are outside it, defending it. That's the big break with TNG.

As for TOS, my take on it is that the 23rd C was less evolved overall. Capitalism or at least the notion of competition for limited resources must have still existed because there was reference to people earning paychecks and Kirk was downright frantic to get the mining operation going again on the Horta world. Plus you had space traders like Harry Mudd and Cyrano Jones always angling to make a buck.

In TVH, Kirk himself walked right in front of a fast oncoming cab, as if he didn't understand the concept of oncoming cars and traffic
He probably expected it to detect him and veer around him. Within our own lifetimes, this might become the norm. Cars will be safer once they start driving themselves.
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Old October 13 2012, 02:40 AM   #72
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
I'm sure many missed it, but at Starfleet Academy we saw this drive by:

Although indended to be a futuristic car from 2258, it's actually from the here and now: www.aptera.com
Actually, it's from the "was" - Aptera is no more, IIRC.
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Old October 13 2012, 08:24 AM   #73
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

If it all went Nu, I'd turn in my fan badge and call it quits.
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