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Old October 9 2012, 12:55 AM   #61
A beaker full of death
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

The real, answer, of course, is that the executive producers assumed that the audience was too stupid to understand why a LT. CMDR would be addressed as "Captain" aboard ship.
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Old October 9 2012, 04:13 PM   #62
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

^^^
To be fair, not everyone is familiar with naval ranks and traditions. Most first-time or uninitiated viewers may know that a captain outranks a lieutenant, but that's about it.
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Old October 9 2012, 06:09 PM   #63
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

I submit television should challenge its viewers, not pander to them.
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Old October 9 2012, 07:09 PM   #64
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

Been tried over time, doesn't work.
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Old October 9 2012, 07:13 PM   #65
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

A beaker full of death wrote: View Post
I submit television should challenge its viewers, not pander to them.
It should. But if you go out of your way to make audiences feel stupid, then your cancelled in thirteen weeks.
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Old October 9 2012, 08:30 PM   #66
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

Does it confuse audiences that in The Caine Mutiny Humphrey Bogart is called "Captain Queeg" and "Lieutenant Commander Queeg"? Or in the various Bounty movies "Captain Bligh" is also called "Lieutenant Bligh"? Or Captain/Commander Richardson in Run Silent Run Deep, Captain/Lieutenant Commander Morton in Mr. Roberts, or Captain/Lieutenant Collins in The Sand Pebbles? I don't think the audience would think twice about it actually, if a writer cared to write it that way. It just seems they default to captain rank for the captain position.

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Old October 9 2012, 11:24 PM   #67
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

^^^
And there's really nothing wrong with defaulting to that if the intention isn't to realistically depict the current US Navy.
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Old October 10 2012, 04:35 AM   #68
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
Does it confuse audiences that in The Caine Mutiny Humphrey Bogart is called "Captain Queeg" and "Lieutenant Commander Queeg"? Or in the various Bounty movies "Captain Bligh" is also called "Lieutenant Bligh"? Or Captain/Commander Richardson in Run Silent Run Deep, Captain/Lieutenant Commander Morton in Mr. Roberts, or Captain/Lieutenant Collins in The Sand Pebbles? I don't think the audience would think twice about it actually, if a writer cared to write it that way. It just seems they default to captain rank for the captain position.

Justin
But none of those had executive producers who assume the worst of their audiences.
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Old October 10 2012, 04:53 AM   #69
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

I don't think the Genes assumed the worst. They just wanted to keep things simple. We are talking about TOS right?
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Old October 10 2012, 06:11 AM   #70
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

I'd think a movie and a TV show would be fundamentally different in the above respect. A movie doesn't need a followership - people come to see it once and won't get their money back even if they can't figure out who outranks whom. But if a TV show is too weird for the audience, it won't develop a following, except on those rare occasions where Dada is the word and things like consistency or story logic would ruin the charm of the concept.

A scifi show might be seen as being entitled to more Dada than other types. But it's basically in a jam due to being weird by default, and in fact needs to simplify and pander just to get even with a no-brainer cop show...

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Old October 10 2012, 01:27 PM   #71
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

Simpsons once made a joke about captains holding ranks other than Captain, where Homer referred to himself as a Colonel, then added he was the Captain of a rocket ship. Bart, totally confused asks "Are you a Captain or a Colonel?"
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Old October 10 2012, 02:25 PM   #72
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

I was actually kind of confused when "Colonel" West appeared in Undiscovered Country, wearing what appeared to be a full Admiral's rank insignia (probably should have been referred to as a general, or else wearing a Starfleet captain's insignia) and nothing else to designate that he was a member of some unknown branch of Starfleet Marines. But I was in the minority. I went to see this movie with a bunch of friends from college and nobody else noticed the anomalous rank grade, nor did they really seem to care.

So, in this case, the reverse of expected confusion happened - non-fans watched and enjoyed the movie without issue and a fan (me) was confused by something thrown into the mix by an overzealous costuming department that didn't track with what I already knew was Fletcher's insignia guidelines.
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Old October 10 2012, 02:33 PM   #73
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

I have always wanted to know can someone above the rank of captain take command of a ship permanently. Like I mean can an Admiral have his full time job in a starship and go exploring or are all these admirals just sitting in starfleet HQ and doing a desk job. Would be nice to see an admiral in charge of a next series instead of captain (just a dream)
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Old October 10 2012, 02:38 PM   #74
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

^^^ It's long been implied in trek that an Admiralty means "no command of a ship", and on-screen dialog supports this. In Wrath of Khan, Spock admonishes Kirk that it was a mistake for him to accept promotion and that command of a starship was his "first, best destiny". In Generations, Kirk tells Picard never to accept a promotion and always remain in command of a ship.

Then again, their are also on-screen exceptions. In both Borg incursions into Federation space, Admirals were in command of ships that flagged larger battle groups.

During WWII, Admirals did command ships, but they were always flagships of battle groups and task forces - it's probably considered a purely wartime TDY posting, as it appears to be in Trek. I don't know if they still do it today with our carrier fleets. I'm inclined to say it is a super-rarity, if it's even done at all any more.
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Old October 10 2012, 03:36 PM   #75
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

In both Borg incursions into Federation space, Admirals were in command of ships that flagged larger battle groups.
What evidence do we have for this? In neither instance was the Admiral seen sitting in the center chair of the starship, nor was there proof that a CO of Captain rank would have been absent.

It is quite possible and even likely that the Admirals were commanding from abroad the ships, not commanding the ships themselves.

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