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Old October 9 2012, 06:04 AM   #256
Locutus of Bored
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

Oh, Large Hadron Collider, is there no fictional mischief you can't be blamed for?

Here's the sketch Rachel was drawing compared to the LHC:


So, the LHC or an equivalent Defense Department version is probably either the cause of or the solution to the Blackout (on a global scale - as opposed to the localized pendants).
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Old October 9 2012, 11:49 AM   #257
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

The trick with the steam engine (or any other old tech that needs to be re-invented), so that we all know what it IS, but can you build one?

For the most part, we've moved past the industrious, handy people of the past, and we're just consumers at this point. Most of us don't know how ANYTHING works, not really.

Sure, you could name plenty of people that could figure it out, but when you kill 90+ % of the population, how many of them were the tough, scrappy, aggressive types that would have survived the mass die-off? Not many. And you'd need a setup to build these kinds of things, and again, good luck.

They've talked about how rare bullets are, but I'm not convinced that muskets would be any MORE common (much less, actually), and then you still need supplies to make it work, a cache of gunpowder, etc.
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Old October 9 2012, 03:34 PM   #258
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

Scout101 wrote: View Post
The trick with the steam engine (or any other old tech that needs to be re-invented), so that we all know what it IS, but can you build one?

For the most part, we've moved past the industrious, handy people of the past, and we're just consumers at this point. Most of us don't know how ANYTHING works, not really.

Sure, you could name plenty of people that could figure it out, but when you kill 90+ % of the population, how many of them were the tough, scrappy, aggressive types that would have survived the mass die-off? Not many. And you'd need a setup to build these kinds of things, and again, good luck.

They've talked about how rare bullets are, but I'm not convinced that muskets would be any MORE common (much less, actually), and then you still need supplies to make it work, a cache of gunpowder, etc.
you don't think the tough scrappy types would be the most likely to survive?

and correct me if I'm wrong ( and I am a lot) but wouldn't a musket be really easy to make out of a piece of pipe and some wood?
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Old October 9 2012, 03:59 PM   #259
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

Scout101 wrote: View Post
For the most part, we've moved past the industrious, handy people of the past, and we're just consumers at this point. Most of us don't know how ANYTHING works, not really.
Let's assume, just for a few moments, that the Internet is the equivalent of any number of libraries or bookstores around the world.

Book One
Book Two
Book Three
...etc.
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Old October 9 2012, 06:44 PM   #260
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

wissaBOO wrote: View Post
you don't think the tough scrappy types would be the most likely to survive?
Of course I do. I don't think the book-smart folks that would be required would BE those tough, scrappy types I'm talking about, though. At best, a few might be picked up and 'kept' by some of the more organized and forward thinking street gangs or militia-types...

and correct me if I'm wrong ( and I am a lot) but wouldn't a musket be really easy to make out of a piece of pipe and some wood?
[/quote] I wouldn't have to, the exploded piece of pipe, and your ruined hands and face would correct you for me.

Not impossible that you could cobble something together, but we're talking more improvised 1-shot device rather than functional and accurate weapon. For fun, do you HAVE the right length, diameter, and thickness pipe for what you have in mind? And a way to cap the one end to force the explosion out the other? What do you have onhand that you can make lead balls out of, wadding, etc? Got gunpowder handy, and know how much to use? It's more complicated that Kirk vs the Gorn indicated...

Can back that up even more, people today don't know how to make SHIT. You eventually give up on the gun because it's hard and/pr dangerous, and figure you can at least go back to bow and arrow. Turns out that those are hard without experience and materials as well. You can slap something together, but it won't work for shit, and is more likely to hurt you than anyone else. To go back far enough to find a weapon the average person can make and handle, you're going to wind up with swords (Stirling is right, car leaf springs would nice here, or at the very least, plenty of metal around you can work with just by sharpening one end and padding a handle), or a pointy stick.

We take the older low tech for granted, because we're way past that tech-wise. But most of us can't MAKE the current tech ourselves, or even the stuff several layers below that.

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post

Let's assume, just for a few moments, that the Internet is the equivalent of any number of libraries or bookstores around the world.

Book One
Book Two
Book Three
...etc.
For fun, while we're assuming things, we'll assume that the reviews of those books were better, and that they included very specific how-to instructions. How many of those types of books would assume that you are working with hand tools and scraps of metal left over from a dead civilization, and that you can't order the parts you need to put this together. You need a book on learning to smelt metal, form parts, etc before you can do this one. And you need a book to learn to build the stuff needed for that step as well.

And that all starts from assuming that the libraries weren't already looted by like-minded people. Or burned for warmth. And the biggest, most comprehensive libraries are in the big cities. Looting, rioting, out of control fires that just aren't being fought by more than a bucket brigade. And that's before the anarchy, cannibalism, and disease/plague parts kick in, as populations in the millions realize that there's nothing left to eat, no help coming, and nowhere to go.

Get past ALL that, grab the 'how to build a steam engine' book. It's great that civilization has it, but what's it doing for YOU? It makes you a target, and unless you're in a large protected group boarded up somewhere, you're not safe enough or stationary enough to try and build up the parts and expertise you need to try it anyway. Even if you can think of anything to do with a small steam engine in the first place. And you need to prioritize carrying those books as you walk/run from place to place hiding, looking for food, etc. How many would you carry, and what would you leave behind to do so? Would the steam engine book really fall above that line?

What I'm trying to point out in all this is that there are some LARGE steps between knowing something is possible to make, and being able to do so. Looking it up on the internet, or finding a book about it does NOT equal ability. And to get to that point, you need a stable, safe location, and enough time in your day where you AREN'T fighting for your survival or staving to death to play in the book to begin with.

Just as many books on how to smelt a sword, doesn't mean you'd have the materials, ability, or time to outfit a clan of ninjas anytime soon.
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Old October 9 2012, 06:53 PM   #261
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

When I was in Washington a few years back, there were old steam trains there in the Smithsonian. Wouldn't other states have one lying about as well? As to muskets, there are caches of these in civil war museums. The militia of Revolution couldn't have gotten them all.

Also, never underestimate the ingenuity of a desperate populous. Things usually find their way to being.
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Old October 9 2012, 07:04 PM   #262
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

Scout101 wrote: View Post
... How many of those types of books would assume that you are working with hand tools and scraps of metal left over from a dead civilization, and that you can't order the parts you need to put this together...
I just picked three books at random after a ten second search. Pick a topic. Any topic. I guarantee you can find multiple books on how to do it. From smelting iron to forging tools and machinery.

Believe it or not, the world managed to thrive for thousands of years prior to the last 50 years of dependency electronics. They also didn't have the things like endless roads or cross-continental railways pre-built to take advantage of their inventions. And you know what else? Much of that knowledge still exists, even if only in books

Should this stupid scenario ever come about, people will have the same -- if not more -- motivation to redevelop those old technologies. Especially if they're a maniacal dictator with nearly unlimited resources and a strong desire to gain a tactical advantage over their enemies.

Despite what you may think, not all people aren't stupid, helpless, or lazy. You're almost as bad as those loons on Ancient Aliens who are convinced that aliens built the pyramids because lifting and carrying a stone is hard work. And God forbid someone spend more time doing actual work than fritzing up their hair and sitting in front of a television camera.
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Old October 9 2012, 07:11 PM   #263
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

not enough to make a difference. And even if there ARE a few laying around and in ready-to-fire condition, got a stash of bullets, gunpowder, and assorted materials around to arm it with?

In the Revolution universe, yeah, they should be looting museums for train parts and the like. Could probably get enough people together to make that work.

In closer to what I'd imagine real life would go like, things would have fallen a bit farther than they did. And if the desperate populus was working together as one, maybe they could pull off a few things, if it was a small enough group. Having a hard time imagining that happy utopia, though. Feels like something on NBC

The reality that keeps getting glossed over is that in a scenario like this, 80-90% of the world's population dies. Of violence, disease, starvation, or chewing on the leg bone of some of the other 90%. Pretty much anyone within a week's walk of a city, to be sure. Those people will eventually be forced to leave, and they're going to strip clean anything within reach before they all die. Where those areas overlap, like the entire east coast, or California, will just be dead zones, stripped pretty clear of much of value. At least until much later, when you can go try for those books, or raw materials. First couple years would be pretty much get away as soon as possible, hide somewhere with water and a food source (grown or salvaged), and keep your head down, wait for the death throes of the old world first. Not a world you want to participate in.

This sort of scenario wouldn't lend itself to a nice family-centered drama...
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Old October 9 2012, 07:34 PM   #264
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
I just picked three books at random after a ten second search. Pick a topic. Any topic. I guarantee you can find multiple books on how to do it. From smelting iron to forging tools and machinery.
Ok, why not? If your scenario, do you prefer to imagine you starved to death trying to figure it out, or that you were killed so that someone else can have the book?

Either way, smelting iron into swords seems reasonable. You've got a great how-to book that you somehow got out of the city and carried at the expense of extra food/water/clothes/weapons. Got easy steps and pictures, even.

You got another book on the forge? where ARE you getting the material and expertise to build that? Assume you've got a team feeding and protecting you while you experiment? Are we assuming you've got a large chunk of iron hanging around as well, just found it?

Not saying any of this is impossible with time, but that that's not a resource you're going to have available for a while. And that while you may get lucky and find the perfect book, there's a million things underlying it that you ALSO don't have.

Believe it or not, the world managed to thrive for thousands of years prior to the last 50 years of dependency electronics. They also didn't have the things like endless roads or cross-continental railways pre-built to take advantage of their inventions. And you know what else? Much of that knowledge still exists, even if only in books
Know what else they had? Experience having DONE those things. Up until about 100 years ago, you had a couple thousand years of blacksmithing experience, in most cases traceable directly from master to apprentice. And available equipment handy that you could use, learn on, and improve. Without google, where's the nearest foundry to you? People were more self-reliant back then. They HAD to do more themselves (farming, sewing their own clothes, woodworking, fighting, depends on location and era, but good general topics). For the most part, people just don't know how to do much of that themselves anymore. Not really sure how you argue that...

Should this stupid scenario ever come about, people will have the same -- if not more -- motivation to redevelop those old technologies. Especially if they're a maniacal dictator with nearly unlimited resources and a strong desire to gain a tactical advantage over their enemies.
Eventually, with time, yes. Not on a small scale, and not in the short term. Although think the premise you're working on there is silly in that regard.

Despite what you may think, not all people aren't stupid, helpless, or lazy.
Fun strawman, but not what I'm arguing. I DO think people have become dependent on technology, and not nearly as many people know how it works, or how to recreate it themselves anymore. And the infastructure to loot to recreate it has moved past what's useful. If you wanted to loot the wagon shop, could probably get it going again with a little effort. The robotic factory that builds cars is a lost cause without electricity and computers. And the foundry isn't the smith down the road, it's some Terminator 2 monstrosity.

You're almost as bad as those loons on Ancient Aliens who are convinced that aliens built the pyramids because lifting and carrying a stone is hard work. And God forbid someone spend more time doing actual work than fritzing up their hair and sitting in front of a television camera.
Not even trying to hide the strawman on that one, huh? Pyramids were built because they had a massive amount of disposable slave labor, and didn't much care how many died in the process. And they weren't expecting the WalMart to go up in 3 months, it was expected that it take 20-30 years. Given almost unlimited people, funding, and time (and motivation), and voila', pyramid.

We picture it as hard because we can't figure out to build a big enough crane system. They built a ramp, had 10,000 people push, and then if the 10,000 got crushed, tried with 20,000 next time. No aliens required.

Will just ignore your last comment about whether this scenario (honest, god-fearing work) is better or worse than what we're doing today, as I can't see how killing 90% or more of the world's population is a positive, even if the survivors learn to knit.
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Old October 9 2012, 07:45 PM   #265
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
Should this stupid scenario ever come about, people will have the same -- if not more -- motivation to redevelop those old technologies. Especially if they're a maniacal dictator with nearly unlimited resources and a strong desire to gain a tactical advantage over their enemies.

Despite what you may think, not all people aren't stupid, helpless, or lazy. You're almost as bad as those loons on Ancient Aliens who are convinced that aliens built the pyramids because lifting and carrying a stone is hard work. And God forbid someone spend more time doing actual work than fritzing up their hair and sitting in front of a television camera.
We do have a real life example of the DE-evolution of society. When Rome fell and the world went into the "dark ages," I'm sure that many folks had a sense that things at one point were better as they looked at the abandoned cities and the amazing achievement. Also science went backwards.
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Old October 9 2012, 08:14 PM   #266
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

This week's episode was the first that made me think the set production people weren't really trying. The diner, the back hallways, etc. of the amusement park didn't at all look like they'd been unmaintained for fifteen years. Scattering around random debris and not smashing any windows does not make it look abandoned. Ditto for any bodies of water - this is a northern state, no? ANY pool left unmaintained for a couple winters would have cracked and drained long since.

Last week, my wife was noticing how they also seemed happy with wrapping vines around stuff to disguise the fact it hasn't aged or rusted. I recognize that there's only so much you can do on any TV budget, but I think there should be better care given to their location dressing.

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Old October 9 2012, 08:52 PM   #267
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

DarthTom wrote: View Post
We do have a real life example of the DE-evolution of society. When Rome fell and the world went into the "dark ages," I'm sure that many folks had a sense that things at one point were better as they looked at the abandoned cities and the amazing achievement. Also science went backwards.
Yes, and they had easy and convenient access to all that knowledge from... where exactly?

Scout101 wrote: View Post
Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
I just picked three books at random after a ten second search. Pick a topic. Any topic. I guarantee you can find multiple books on how to do it. From smelting iron to forging tools and machinery.
Ok, why not? If your scenario, do you prefer to imagine you starved to death trying to figure it out, or that you were killed so that someone else can have the book?
Have you even been watching the same show I have? Have you not seen the cushy little livese these people are living, especially the Monroe Republic government itself? The only hardship people have in this insipid world comes from dealing with the bullies in the government and the occasional gang-like groups that have been kinda-sorta implied to exist.

So yeah, it's very easy to imagine an environment where really smart people with access to lots of books, manuals, and tools can begin building and repairing older technology. For Christ's sake, we saw them dragging a full-sized helicopter around and that is based solely on an empty hope that Monroe can get a magic talisman.

But oh God, they couldn't possibly be arsed to build/repair a relatively simple boiler or diesel engine, could they? I made a simple steam engine in junior high for Christ's sake, and that was with a few bucks worth of material, a book, and a little trial and error... and all so I could get a meaningless grade for the project. But who cares? Well-educated adults are too stupid and lazy to do anything even remotely like that, especially if it means making their actual lives better.

Hell, we haven't even seen a damn windmill for grinding grain on the show either. But I guess even that is too advanced for our stupid, primitive brains to comprehend. Hopefully some aliens will show up and build them for these dunderheads on the show soon.

(Nevermind that people can build a makeshift PC even though there's thousands upon thousands of perfectly functional ones laying all over the place, as evident by the British chick's iPhone still working perfectly fine. Shouldn't they all be stupid, lazy twits, too? Or is it only okay to have the knowledge, skill, and willpower to do things if it involves electronics?)
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Old October 9 2012, 09:07 PM   #268
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
Yes, and they had easy and convenient access to all that knowledge from... where exactly?
Well somehow human beings forgot how to build aqueducts [for exmaple] because after Rome fell - people stopped transporting water over llarge distances.



(Nevermind that people can build a makeshift PC even though there's thousands upon thousands of perfectly functional ones laying all over the place, as evident by the British chick's iPhone still working perfectly fine. Shouldn't they all be stupid, lazy twits, too? Or is it only okay to have the knowledge, skill, and willpower to do things if it involves electronics?)
I think you're being overly critical. While each example you point out is valid they are using some of the non-existent tech as a plot device.

And if Revolution deserves the use of these plot devices to carry a story then Star Trek deserves the same criticism ten fold for the magical engineering solution of the week that is forgotten by the very same engineers who devised it in the first place 3 episodes later that would have solved a like problem.
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Old October 9 2012, 09:13 PM   #269
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Maybe we have yet to see that Monroe has a group of engineers somewhere trying to find ways to help give him non-electric tech so he would have an advantage. We see a steam train in the next episode, so i would guess he has his own group of engineers. He probably keeps some former electricians around just in case he can get the power back.
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Old October 9 2012, 09:34 PM   #270
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
Have you even been watching the same show I have? Have you not seen the cushy little livese these people are living, especially the Monroe Republic government itself? The only hardship people have in this insipid world comes from dealing with the bullies in the government and the occasional gang-like groups that have been kinda-sorta implied to exist.
Yes, and I think that part is stupid. Which is why I've been arguing from what I THINK would have happened based on the scenario presented, not what the show told us did happen here. But since the show's version is some nice sanitized thing, and doesn't really make sense, I've mostly ignored it. Been pretty obvious about it...

So yeah, it's very easy to imagine an environment where really smart people with access to lots of books, manuals, and tools can begin building and repairing older technology. For Christ's sake, we saw them dragging a full-sized helicopter around and that is based solely on an empty hope that Monroe can get a magic talisman.
Yep, stupid. Like you said, based on magic.

But oh God, they couldn't possibly be arsed to build/repair a relatively simple boiler or diesel engine, could they?
you keep skipping the part between Day One and when we've got this cooperative society looking to rebuild. And the damage that would create. Eventually, you could get back to it, and some of it would still work, or be fixable, yes. Of course, you keep saying you can just build a new one from scratch, or forge your own ninja sword because you saw a picture in a book.

I made a simple steam engine in junior high for Christ's sake, and that was with a few bucks worth of material, a book, and a little trial and error...
With stuff you found on the ground, or parts that had been manufactured and collected for you? How much power did your toy engine produce that helped you perform tasks around the house?

Well-educated adults are too stupid and lazy to do anything even remotely like that, especially if it means making their actual lives better.
Again, skipping the little period of time where society collapses, and most of them die. That, and priorities, where playing with steam engines don't rank higher than food, clothing, shelter, defense, medicine, etc. Pretty high percentage of those well-educated adults live near large population centers and are probably gonners anyway.

Hell, we haven't even seen a damn windmill for grinding grain on the show either. But I guess even that is too advanced for our stupid, primitive brains to comprehend. Hopefully some aliens will show up and build them for these dunderheads on the show soon.
NOT too advanced, and you'd eventually expect it. You'd also expect their little cute farm to be wiped out in about an hour by anyone that notices their windmill, and then moved somewhere with at least half-assed defenses. Good example, though: Know how to make bread? Know anyone that does? Put it on the pile of books you're carrying around. You might wanna get a red wagon for them, getting heavy...

(Nevermind that people can build a makeshift PC even though there's thousands upon thousands of perfectly functional ones laying all over the place, as evident by the British chick's iPhone still working perfectly fine.
More evidence of stupid things put in by the writers that make no sense, we agree. Not sure that helps your argument that this world is well thought-out, though.

Shouldn't they all be stupid, lazy twits, too? Or is it only okay to have the knowledge, skill, and willpower to do things if it involves electronics?)
well, you see, those people were in on the secret government conspiracy to destroy civilization for, uh, some reason. In order to,um... profit? Can't be power, as they had enough power to pull this off, so were already doing fine. Actually, reason doesn't make much sense at all.

If you'd like to continue this "debate", can you at least decide if we're arguing about this silly presented world, or what we think WOULD happen if the power just went off one day, for good? You keep going back and forth, and when I make progress on the 'real' front, you just change back to happy magic land, and it's difficult to argue those points, as they don't make much sense to begin with. Might as well say "a wizard did it" and call it a day...
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