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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old October 8 2012, 08:23 PM   #46
Worf'sParmach
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

The reason Kurn wasn't willing to just wait it out was 1) for plot device and 2) because from his perspective Worf had no reason to fight for their honor. Worf lived a comfortable life in Starfleet, a life not at all affected by his choice to side against the Empire. Kurn's life was the Empire, without it he didn't want to live.

In addition to the ending, I am also bothered by the fact that Worf ever thought he'd be able to carry out the ritual suicide on DS9. Even if he hadn't been stopped by Dax, how was he planning to dispose of the body and account for Kurn's absense? If anyone ever found out he would have been tried for murder. They should have left the station and gone outside of Starfleet's jurisdiction. This is how he got away with killing Duras on TNG, he did it on a Klingon ship.

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
Worf..he was ultra Klingon-- he took everything literally to the point that even other Klingons couldn't understand him...
Agree. I like to say that Worf is a textbook Klingon, because all he really knows about Klingons is what he's read or studied. Jadzia calls him out on this in "Let He..."
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Old October 8 2012, 11:23 PM   #47
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

I actually thought Worf's attempt to rationalize the ritual was one of the better points, as it helped illustrate the conflict between cultures. You have a good point about whether or not he could have succeeded in carrying it out on DS9, but perhaps he felt there was no other option. And he didn't get off completely scot-free when he killed Duras. Picard gave him a formal reprimand on his Starfleet record because Worf was still one of his officers. The Klingons might have felt he acted appropriately, but I think both views have some validity.
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Old October 9 2012, 12:56 AM   #48
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

I just watched this episode the other night, and I'm rather shocked at the things Worf can get away with! Successfully killing Duras, trying to kill Kurn...wow. At least Duras was armed and fighting, but Kurn wasn't. Sure, Kurn was suicidal in a socially acceptable way for Klingons, but still, it's amazing that Worf never seems to get more than a black mark on his service record for what he does.

Watching "Sons of Mogh" again just struck me with 24th century culture shock. Worf tries to kill his brother, fails, and doesn't get charged with murder, attempted murder, or any other crime. His colleagues don't even really blink an eye at it - the next wee they're back to work, no discomfort around him at all. I suppose it's a logical consequence of their culture and era, since the characters of DS9 are surrounded with so many other diverse cultures. It's not as though Klingons are the only people with ritual killing in their culture - the Vulcans condone fights to the death, at least, and if I recall correctly, suicide is acceptable in their culture.

Still, to work with someone who is capable of killing their own brother, or at least attempting to do so, would be unnerving to us now, I should think, but somehow not really uncomfortable to people (well, Starfleet officers) of the 24th century. What a change in humans.
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Old October 9 2012, 03:44 AM   #49
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

That, and in odd things,in another episode Our fave tailor tries to commit genocide, and gets 6 months...
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Old October 9 2012, 08:07 AM   #50
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

This theme ran a lot in DS9 strangely enough.

After they found out about Dukat's half Bajoran daughter, he was demoted, shunned and his career was ruined. A few months later he had enough bargaining chips and clot to get his rank, title and reputation reinstated.

Quark was also exiled, left destitute, but took advantage of the resources on the station to still run his business. A few months later he got his business license and reputation back.

His brother eventually became the Grand Nagus.

Odo was made human and exiled from his people, but after sticking it out on the station and a freak encounter, he become a changeling again, plus his people flat out forgave him.

In each of those cases, these people were all shunned and left with almost nothing, but they took advantage of what they had, and made a complete comeback and regained everything.

So, hey, why not Kurn?
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Old October 9 2012, 01:34 PM   #51
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
How did Worf convince Julian to do the procedure without Kurn's permission? Wouldn't that be considered unethical and even illegal?
Zombie Redshirt wrote: View Post
I could have seen Kurn just grumpily signing a form that says Worf is his guardian in regards to all decisions regarding medical procedures.
Worf was the elder brother, in Klingon medical ethical matters, that might have been all that was reverent. Bashir recognized that culturally Worf could make the decision for Kurn, without Kurn's input.

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Watching "Sons of Mogh" again just struck me with 24th century culture shock. Worf tries to kill his brother, fails, and doesn't get charged with murder, attempted murder, or any other crime.
The question might in this case come down to whether or not the Bajorians have assisted suicide. DS9 is administered by Starfleet, but it's Bajorian national territory. Murder is killing someone in a illegal fashion, if assisted suicide were legal in the jurisdiction (Bajorian) in which Kurn found himself, then Worf would not have been committing murder, homicide, Klingon-slaughter, or what have you.

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Old October 9 2012, 04:23 PM   #52
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

When Odo and Jadzia broke into Worf's quarters, Odo immediately threatened Worf with murder charges "if he [Kurn] dies". I suppose, though, that in the heat of the moment, Odo knows only that Worf plunged a knife into Kurn's chest. Without any context, it would be murder, but in context, it is assisted suicide. If it had gone to trial, then we'd have discovered the Bajorans' stance on suicide and assisted suicide.

For some reason, though, the incident never went beyond Sisko yelling at Worf. Picard gave Worf a black mark for killing Duras in a fair fight on a Klingon ship. Did Sisko even so much as issue an official reprimand to Worf for attempting to kill his own brother at a Starfleet installation?
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Old October 9 2012, 04:46 PM   #53
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

DS9 isn't a Starfleet Installation, it's a Bajoran one. Starfleet is allowed to administer it, but it's not theirs.
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Old October 9 2012, 05:03 PM   #54
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Worf is subject to Starfleet rules on a Starfleet-administered station, then, if you want to be pedantic. It doesn't really matter whose law the station operates under, because it is not as though the Bajoran legal system is radically different from the Federation's.

At least when Worf fought and killed Duras, he was in Klingon legal jurisdiction, what with being on Duras's own ship and all. From the Starfleet point of view, it was even self-defense, if you ignore the fact that Worf started the fight. On the other hand, Duras started the duel with Worf by killing K'Ehleyr. The Klingons had no problem with Worf's actions, but Picard did, even when Starfleet didn't seem to, or probably even couldn't have a problem with it. But did Sisko even do as much as Picard did under similar circumstances, i.e., Worf carrying out actions that were legal under Klingon law but not Federation law? I don't recall Sisko doing anything more than yelling at Worf.

How much leeway are Starfleet officers of various cultures given? Does Federation law follow the citizen, or does the law of the land/planet/culture hold no matter where the citizen is? Picard disapproved of Worf killing Duras even though it was legal to do so in the way he did, and outside Federation territory to boot. Was Picard just being Picard the Perfect Human, or did he have legal grounds for admonishing Worf? Similarly, would Worf be able to use Klingon law in a defense if he had been brought to trial for Kurn's "murder", if it had gone that far?
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Old October 9 2012, 05:57 PM   #55
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Picard did conveniently forget Duras murdered K'heylar on his ship when he ripped into Worf.
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Old October 10 2012, 12:06 AM   #56
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
How did Worf convince Julian to do the procedure without Kurn's permission? Wouldn't that be considered unethical and even illegal?
Worf was the elder brother, in Klingon medical ethical matters, that might have been all that was reverent. Bashir recognized that culturally Worf could make the decision for Kurn, without Kurn's input.
But that is just bizarre. Wiping someone's memory- that's erasing a whole lifetime and personality.

This is purely psychological, not physical. Why not medicate him or something.

Most people would be pissed if you did that to their iphone, they'd freak out if you tried to do that to their entire memory and experiences.

Julian had to just look away in one way or another in order to carry that out. There would be too many medical ethics questions, I would think.

Zombie Redshirt wrote: View Post
Picard did conveniently forget Duras murdered K'heylar on his ship when he ripped into Worf.
Interesting. A Federation Ambassador. If Worf hadn't done anything, I wonder what Picard/The Federation would have done.
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Old October 10 2012, 03:37 PM   #57
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
How did Worf convince Julian to do the procedure without Kurn's permission? Wouldn't that be considered unethical and even illegal?
Worf was the elder brother, in Klingon medical ethical matters, that might have been all that was reverent. Bashir recognized that culturally Worf could make the decision for Kurn, without Kurn's input.
But that is just bizarre. Wiping someone's memory- that's erasing a whole lifetime and personality.

This is purely psychological, not physical. Why not medicate him or something.

Most people would be pissed if you did that to their iphone, they'd freak out if you tried to do that to their entire memory and experiences.

Julian had to just look away in one way or another in order to carry that out. There would be too many medical ethics questions, I would think.

Zombie Redshirt wrote: View Post
Picard did conveniently forget Duras murdered K'heylar on his ship when he ripped into Worf.
Interesting. A Federation Ambassador. If Worf hadn't done anything, I wonder what Picard/The Federation would have done.

Considering the TNG-era UFP's response to blatant Romulan/Cardassian provocations or even acts of war, the answer would probably have been "have Picard give a stern lecture to the Klingons expressing his dissatisfaction and conveying the message that he will be watching."
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Old October 10 2012, 05:03 PM   #58
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

The federation has a lot of Neville chamberlains.
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Old October 11 2012, 06:03 AM   #59
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

A lot of truth to that.
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Old October 11 2012, 12:54 PM   #60
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Was there any proof Duras killed K'heylar? Worf knew from personal experience it was him, but was there anything to go on?
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