RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,550
Posts: 5,422,188
Members: 24,805
Currently online: 408
Newest member: Dylancute

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Tears of the Prophets
By: Michelle on Sep 12

New Wizkids Attack Wing Ships
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Coto Drama Sold To Fox
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Braga Inks Deal
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Remastered Original Series Re-release
By: T'Bonz on Sep 11

UK Trek Ships Calendar Debuts
By: T'Bonz on Sep 10

Quinto In The Slap
By: T'Bonz on Sep 9

Burton On Shatner’s Brown Bag Wine Tasting
By: T'Bonz on Sep 9

New Trek Trading Card Series
By: T'Bonz on Sep 8

New Red Shirt Diaries Episode
By: T'Bonz on Sep 8


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Voyager

Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 25 2012, 06:31 PM   #46
Brit
Captain
 
Brit's Avatar
 
Location: Texas
Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

teacake wrote: View Post
Alpha Flyer wrote: View Post

So -- we've had this discussion before in another thread, haven't we?
TUVIX IS COMING.

Qutlunch is up to Tuvix as soon as she gets the dvd.
Oh, well at least this time I've thought of a new counter argument.
__________________
"My name is Matai Shang and I do not exist, indeed I work very hard at it."

Avatar by Me
Brit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 25 2012, 10:08 PM   #47
Alpha Flyer
Lieutenant Commander
 
Alpha Flyer's Avatar
 
Location: Off the Shoulder of Orion
View Alpha Flyer's Twitter Profile
Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

Brit wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Alpha Flyer wrote: View Post

So -- we've had this discussion before in another thread, haven't we?
TUVIX IS COMING.

Qutlunch is up to Tuvix as soon as she gets the dvd.
Oh, well at least this time I've thought of a new counter argument.
Ah yes, splice euthanasia.

Q: If you commit acts of questionable ethic value in space, does anyone run to the press? Or get thrown in the brig?

A: Depends.
__________________
A tidy home is the sign of a misspent life.

You are welcome to check out my fanfic at http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2537553/Alpha_Flyer
Alpha Flyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 25 2012, 10:13 PM   #48
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

Foot fault!/False start!

Wait for the starters pistol ma'am or we'll have to scratch you from the race and take away your medals.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2012, 02:11 AM   #49
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

Alpha Flyer wrote: View Post
4. Keeping the memorial functioning is important to maintain the intent and benefit of #1.

5. Warning incoming travellers of what it does mitigates the possible damage done by #2.
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
4. If there's a memorial in space and no one knows it's there does it really exist?

5. Warning or inviting?
Okay, how this for a solution? Repair the monument, but adjust it so that it's "mind rape" effect only works over a distance of a hundred metres. There is a clearly marked activation button, good for one play per push.

Place space buoys (buoies?) that describe the monument, it's location and how to activate it. Inform visitors what to expect in detail.

Both a warning and an invitation. Academic scholars and curious tourists alike will come and experience the monument, word will spread.

With consent, there is no rape.

T'Girl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2012, 05:06 AM   #50
teacake
Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.
Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

Like someone suggested a month ago in this thread.. Janeway was still under the Memorial's influence. A touch of Stockholm. All that practicality you suggest Trannie-sylv didn't give her the same emotional hit as getting others to go through what she had been through. It's like when your friends want you to just try this illicit substance once or go on have another pint when you are clearly not going to cope with it. Your pain is cathartic of their pain. I think if they had just backed away for a couple months and then revisited this discussion Janeway would have gutted the place and turned it into a diorama.
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2012, 07:26 AM   #51
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

Trannie~sylvania wrote: View Post
Alpha Flyer wrote: View Post
4. Keeping the memorial functioning is important to maintain the intent and benefit of #1.

5. Warning incoming travellers of what it does mitigates the possible damage done by #2.
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
4. If there's a memorial in space and no one knows it's there does it really exist?

5. Warning or inviting?
Okay, how this for a solution? Repair the monument, but adjust it so that it's "mind rape" effect only works over a distance of a hundred metres. There is a clearly marked activation button, good for one play per push.

Place space buoys (buoies?) that describe the monument, it's location and how to activate it. Inform visitors what to expect in detail.

Both a warning and an invitation. Academic scholars and curious tourists alike will come and experience the monument, word will spread.

With consent, there is no rape.

Maybe they want the rape.

No one's looking after the memorial or even the planet, it's run down and abandoned.

Everyone has forgotten.

Or think they know better.

If not for the odd rape now and then this place would serve no purpose, and if it luckily rapes the right people, maybe they'll see how important it is and they'll fix up the memorial and maybe even staff it and start a package tour company?

Remember the Buffy where the Indian Ghost gave Xander VD (and smallpox)?
Spike: I just can't take all this mamby-pamby boo-hooing about the bloody Indians.
Willow: Uh, the preferred term is...
Spike: You won. All right? You came in and you killed them and you took their land. That's what conquering nations do. It's what Caesar did, and he's not goin' around saying, "I came, I conquered, I felt really bad about it." The history of the world is not people making friends. You had better weapons, and you massacred them. End of story.
Apart from Christianity (If the Roman's had been nicer there wouldn't have been a Christianity as we understand it.), none of the billions of tons of monuments left behind by the Roman Empire say much else other than "Suck it! Suck it!" but the entire world gets behind their glory hogging still thousands of years after the fact.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2012, 10:22 PM   #52
BirdInJetstream
Lieutenant Commander
 
BirdInJetstream's Avatar
 
Location: Jetstream
Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Trannie~sylvania wrote: View Post
Alpha Flyer wrote: View Post
4. Keeping the memorial functioning is important to maintain the intent and benefit of #1.

5. Warning incoming travellers of what it does mitigates the possible damage done by #2.
Okay, how this for a solution? Repair the monument, but adjust it so that it's "mind rape" effect only works over a distance of a hundred metres. There is a clearly marked activation button, good for one play per push.

Place space buoys (buoies?) that describe the monument, it's location and how to activate it. Inform visitors what to expect in detail.

Both a warning and an invitation. Academic scholars and curious tourists alike will come and experience the monument, word will spread.

With consent, there is no rape.

Maybe they want the rape.

No one's looking after the memorial or even the planet, it's run down and abandoned.

Everyone has forgotten.

Or think they know better.

If not for the odd rape now and then this place would serve no purpose, and if it luckily rapes the right people, maybe they'll see how important it is and they'll fix up the memorial and maybe even staff it and start a package tour company?

Remember the Buffy where the Indian Ghost gave Xander VD (and smallpox)?
Spike: I just can't take all this mamby-pamby boo-hooing about the bloody Indians.
Willow: Uh, the preferred term is...
Spike: You won. All right? You came in and you killed them and you took their land. That's what conquering nations do. It's what Caesar did, and he's not goin' around saying, "I came, I conquered, I felt really bad about it." The history of the world is not people making friends. You had better weapons, and you massacred them. End of story.
Apart from Christianity (If the Roman's had been nicer there wouldn't have been a Christianity as we understand it.), none of the billions of tons of monuments left behind by the Roman Empire say much else other than "Suck it! Suck it!" but the entire world gets behind their glory hogging still thousands of years after the fact.

I think it comes down to the big question if memorials/shared memories can prevent history from repeating itself. I do not doubt that such a memory makes individuals aware of such situations. They probably will be more aware and stand up against discrimination and crimes against a minority. On the other hand you have always people who do commit crimes because of their ideology - be it nationalism, religion whatever. But in the end those that shared the memory of a past crime are important to fight the new one. They are the only thing to make a difference.
__________________
"Life improves the capacity of the environment to sustain life." - P. Kynes
BirdInJetstream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2012, 10:41 PM   #53
BirdInJetstream
Lieutenant Commander
 
BirdInJetstream's Avatar
 
Location: Jetstream
Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

The "maintainance" of memory is important. I guess this is unquestioned.

So how to reach people?

Nations fix the aspects of their history in their education programmes in the schools to make sure the memory is not forgotten. Which is not the same as the mind rape in this episode, but it is a nonvoluntary experience in a way as well. Still it doesn't prevent Neonazism.

Would a memorial without the actual experience do the job as well?
Holocaust memorials show that people are exposing themselves voluntarily to a history that left nations traumatised.

IMO a voluntary approach of such a topic is much more successful to keep the memory and prevent a repetition of such crimes. You can't force it on people because this violation might cause the opposite of what shall be achieved.
__________________
"Life improves the capacity of the environment to sustain life." - P. Kynes
BirdInJetstream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2012, 11:08 PM   #54
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

So power wanted to move a dinky village, there was some shooting. 80 people died. Someone didn't want to go to jail so they started hiding/burning bodies... Um? Big deal.

This is all about 80 hillbnillies that didn't want to be relocated.

Chakotay is an Indian!

Either whitey moved his lot into the corner, or space man kicked his ancestors off the planet.

Economies of scale!

Meanwhile...

1/4 of that crew is Maquis.

When power told the Maquis to be good cows because the government wanted their homes, them picked up all the weapons they could find and almost brought two empires to their knees through political disobedience and terrorism.

What should the Maquis get from this experience?

How to be a wuss?

In theory every single member of the Maquis crew had been minding their own business eating dinner only to find 2 minutes later they're gutting a Cardie who just kicked their door down at least a dozen times.

They already lived the experience of this Monument, but with BALLS.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2012, 11:15 PM   #55
BirdInJetstream
Lieutenant Commander
 
BirdInJetstream's Avatar
 
Location: Jetstream
Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
So power wanted to move a dinky village, there was some shooting. 80 people died. Someone didn't want to go to jail so they started hiding/burning bodies... Um? Big deal.

This is all about 80 hillbnillies that didn't want to be relocated.

Chakotay is an Indian!

Either whitey moved his lot into the corner, or space man kicked his ancestors off the planet.

Economies of scale!

Meanwhile...

1/4 of that crew is Maquis.

When power told the Maquis to be good cows because the government wanted their homes, them picked up all the weapons they could find and almost brought two empires to their knees through political disobedience and terrorism.

What should the Maquis get from this experience?

How to be a wuss?

In theory every single member of the Maquis crew had been minding their own business eating dinner only to find 2 minutes later they're gutting a Cardie who just kicked their door down at least a dozen times.

They already lived the experience of this Monument, but with BALLS.


And when their war is over I am sure they don't want their successors forget about it. There is the collective memory of the society and there is the memory of the individual. I don't see the conflict (as long as there is no mind rape involved).

And I don't think actual numbers are really relevant.
__________________
"Life improves the capacity of the environment to sustain life." - P. Kynes
BirdInJetstream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2012, 11:34 PM   #56
teacake
Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.
Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

I'm sure the Maquis will be quite forgotten, they have already managed to completely wipe them out. Their settlements are gone, their cause is going to seem silly to humans full of the glories of the end of the Dominion war. On Bajor, some will remember because colonization by Cardassia is still a current generation thing. The Maquis communities are dissolved into the diaspora of post-Dominion war chaos.
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 8 2012, 12:41 AM   #57
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

The actual numbers are completely relevant.

The Maquis don't think of 80 bodies as needing a massgrave.

If you jump up and down on the corpses, you can fit 80 bodes into one regular sized grave, and call it a Tuesday.

If the numbers aren't relevant, then there's little difference between this and DS9's Move Along Home, when they wanted to open up one of the planets molten core in the Bajor system as a power station and that codgey old bugger said "hell no".

This wasn't about a war.

There was a war on and they... Fuck it.

I put the disk into my machine to watch it again.

(Awful.)

Hmmm.

A Starship needs a block of Dilithium the size of a ipad to run, and these days they can regenerate the stuff... Methinks that this was about commerce. I suppose selling natural resources is an end around on the non interference directive.

A little better than selling replicators.

Finished.

Solders were told to relocate a colony of 82 unarmed civilians. The soldiers were volunteers on the side of right. Considering they were about to go whore it up on a pleasure planet for two weeks after they finished moving the colonists, it wasn't even clear if there was a real war on with good vs bad. The Soliders, unless the were lying or had been lied to, were going to take the colony to a staging area for two weeks and then take them back home. No harm, no foul.

Um?

But the colonists decided to kill the solders?

The unarmed colonists somehow were all heavily armed?

UM.

This sounds more like Jim Jones or Waco, more so than the soldiers boys did anything wrong until they started burning bodies and that's just becuase they didn't understand what the fuck happened.

I bet half the planet was just heroin fields and it was madness to abandon them becuase it got between them and payday.

The episode didn't have enough informaiton.

Why did the colonists need to be moved for two weeks, and why would they rather kill or die than be moved for two weeks?

Kim and paris spent an afternoon blowing up stars once, wiping out untold dozens of civilizations, but 82 morons count in contention against some of Voyager's other fuck ups... Seven of Nine admits to having facilitated the assimilation of millions in this very episode.

To that girl, 82 people is Tuesday morning before breakfast.

"sigh"

Stupid episode.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 8 2012, 10:28 PM   #58
BirdInJetstream
Lieutenant Commander
 
BirdInJetstream's Avatar
 
Location: Jetstream
Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

Of course numbers matter if you want to compare quantities - how many are affected and need the monument. The more people that are killed the bigger the part of society that needs to deal with it. (That equation has its natural asymptote when there is no one left of course.) But I don't think it is really about how many people are affected but how much they suffer from this. And you are in a way right with the examples about the Romans and so on. The longer these things are in the past the less its possible to connect to what happened. And another problem is that you never know, if its just one side of the coin. Even if you are actually experiencing the memory - who tells you that that's the truth?
__________________
"Life improves the capacity of the environment to sustain life." - P. Kynes
BirdInJetstream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 8 2012, 10:45 PM   #59
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

BirdInJetstream wrote: View Post
who tells you that that's the truth?
The rape machine.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:08 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.