RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,544
Posts: 5,513,295
Members: 25,143
Currently online: 492
Newest member: JackieM

TrekToday headlines

Two New Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Dec 26

Captain Kirk’s Boldest Missions
By: T'Bonz on Dec 25

Trek Paper Clips
By: T'Bonz on Dec 24

Sargent Passes
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

QMx Trek Insignia Badges
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

And The New Director Of Star Trek 3 Is…
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

TV Alert: Pine On Tonight Show
By: T'Bonz on Dec 22

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 8 2012, 05:56 AM   #1501
flemm
Fleet Captain
 
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Ln X wrote: View Post
The problem is the interactions between Ghemor and Kira, they seem to really know each other when they have only met face to face almost three years ago for a short period of time. They just seem to be too familiar and it doesn't gel with me, and it smacks of laziness on the writers part not explaining this away.
I've read similar comments on this episode from time to time. It never really struck me that way, but I guess you do have to accept the bond between Kira and Ghemor for this story to work. It's always worked for me because I felt it was strong enough in Second Skin to be believable here as well, or for this to be believable as an extension of that.

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
My one problem with it is that Kira explains her emotional journey at the end of the episode, which felt unnecessary, but Nana Visitor gave it her all and just about manages to sell the scene regardless.
To me the issue in that scene is more Bashir's side of the dialogue, rather than Kira's. At least that's how it struck me in the past. There are lines where Bashir spells things out unnecessarily. But... not enough of a problem to really matter imo.

Love the final scene on Bajor especially.
flemm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 8 2012, 06:02 AM   #1502
Nerys Ghemor
Vice Admiral
 
Nerys Ghemor's Avatar
 
Location: Cardăsa Terăm--Nerys Ghemor
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

flemm wrote: View Post
I've read similar comments on this episode from time to time. It never really struck me that way, but I guess you do have to accept the bond between Kira and Ghemor for this story to work. It's always worked for me because I felt it was strong enough in Second Skin to be believable here as well, or for this to be believable as an extension of that.
It seemed to me like they had to have corresponded in SOME way that we never saw--but, I also thought that they bonded very strongly as a result of their shared experience in "Second Skin." I also always imagined a lot happened off-camera during the ride back to DS9 from Cardassia, and back on the station before Tekeny went into exile with the Mathenites.
__________________
Are you a Cardassian fan, citizen? Prove your loyalty--check out my fanfic universe, Star Trek: Sigils and Unions. Or keep the faith on my AU Cardassia, Sigils and Unions: Catacombs of Oralius!
Nerys Ghemor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 17 2012, 04:39 PM   #1503
TheGodBen
Rear Admiral
 
TheGodBen's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Ferengi Love Songs (*)

This is yet another episode that I put off watching for far too long, but I finally worked up the courage. It's bad, it's stupid, it's annoying, and it's not funny. The episode contains a lot of the worst of DS9 while containing very little of its best, I dread to think that somewhere in the world somebody is tuning into DS9 for the first time and this episode will completely shape their opinion of the show.

Ishka is never going to show up on a list of DS9's best characters, but it's still disappointing how her portrayal has devolved between Family Business and this episode. She used to be a determined Ferengi feminist, willing to stand up against the oppression in her society and within her own family, but at the same time she still loved her family and was willing to make a sacrifice for them. She was about as good as you could expect from a female Ferengi character. which isn't saying that much, but it's something. Hardly any of that is present in this episode, here she is portrayed like a teenage girl falling for her first crush. She's whiny, over-emotional, annoyingly smitten, and just a little clueless. I don't blame the new actress for this change, that's just the way the character was written this time around.

So, why the one star? Partly because my expectations were so low going into the episode that it managed to rise slightly above them, and it's partly because of Brunt and the always watchable Jeffrey Combs. Just like Ishka, Brunt isn't a great character, but he's probably the best Ferengi villain we can ever hope to see. He can be annoying, just like all the other Ferengi characters, but he's a pretty good foil for Quark.
__________________
...so many different suns...
TheGodBen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 17 2012, 11:18 PM   #1504
flemm
Fleet Captain
 
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

For whatever reason, I rewatched this episode not too long ago. I think I was just going through that part of the season or something.

I knew it was bad, but man, it was even worse than I remembered. Just painful. As good as DS9 can be, occasionally it is just putrid.
flemm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 17 2012, 11:24 PM   #1505
apenpaap
Commodore
 
apenpaap's Avatar
 
Location: Cardassia, where only the military metaphors work.
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I actually found Ferengi Love Songs not that bad. It's definitely weak, but that's all. I wouldn't call it bad, and it definitely wasn't painful for me to watch; just boring. There are only 4 DS9 episodes I would call bad, namely Meridian, The Muse, Let He Who is Without Sin... and The Emperor's New Cloak; and of those two actually have enjoyable B-plots. The A-plots of these two, and the other two episodes entirely are just painful to watch. I'd probably give Ferengi Love Songs two stars, or maybe 1.5, myself.
__________________
The Obsidian Order: Proudly watching you since the 19th century. And looking manly in our purple hats while doing that.
apenpaap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 18 2012, 01:03 AM   #1506
InklingStar
Fleet Captain
 
InklingStar's Avatar
 
Location: Olympia, Washington, USA
View InklingStar's Twitter Profile
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

apenpaap wrote: View Post
I actually found Ferengi Love Songs not that bad. It's definitely weak, but that's all. I wouldn't call it bad, and it definitely wasn't painful for me to watch; just boring. There are only 4 DS9 episodes I would call bad, namely Meridian, The Muse, Let He Who is Without Sin... and The Emperor's New Cloak; and of those two actually have enjoyable B-plots. The A-plots of these two, and the other two episodes entirely are just painful to watch. I'd probably give Ferengi Love Songs two stars, or maybe 1.5, myself.
Have you blotted out "Profit and Lace" from your memory? If so, I envy you.
__________________
"In the name of the best within you, do not sacrifice this world to those who are its worst."
InklingStar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 18 2012, 10:02 AM   #1507
apenpaap
Commodore
 
apenpaap's Avatar
 
Location: Cardassia, where only the military metaphors work.
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

No, I just didn't see what the fuss was about. Sure, it's a crappy episode, but it's hardly as awful as people make it out to be. At least, that's my opinion.
__________________
The Obsidian Order: Proudly watching you since the 19th century. And looking manly in our purple hats while doing that.
apenpaap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 5 2012, 03:17 PM   #1508
TheGodBen
Rear Admiral
 
TheGodBen's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Soldiers of the Empire (***½)

So, I watched this episode over a week ago, then I got a mild flu and didn't spend much time on the computer, so it's not as fresh in my memory as these episodes normally are when writing these things up. I mostly enjoyed it, it's a pretty good Klingon episode that explores their command structure without Federation officers judging them by their own values. We get to see some pretty distinct Klingon characters, and Martok's character is fleshed out a little more. There's not much plot to drive things along, but it's okay.

Too much Klingon material can get annoying, they're a popular race but they sure can get repetitive. This episode mostly avoids that, but you still can't get away from it completely, Klingons are generally very simplistic and like fighting things for the sake of fighting. You need a good actor to flesh them out and give them nuance, which is why the character of Martok works so well, but you just can't expect that sort of thing from every Klingon character. I wonder sometimes about the actors that are cast as Klingons and what that process is like, especially if they're not familiar with Star Trek. Do they ever feel goofy playing such simple-minded characters, as so many Klingons are? Perhaps they see it as a fun change from the regular small-time roles they play?
__________________
...so many different suns...
TheGodBen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 5 2012, 03:39 PM   #1509
Deranged Nasat
Vice Admiral
 
Deranged Nasat's Avatar
 
Location: Ch'Rihan.
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

OhGodBen wrote: View Post
I wonder sometimes about the actors that are cast as Klingons and what that process is like, especially if they're not familiar with Star Trek. Do they ever feel goofy playing such simple-minded characters, as so many Klingons are? Perhaps they see it as a fun change from the regular small-time roles they play?
I think there's a part of us all that wants to spend a day bellowing "you have insulted my honour. I WILL KILL YOU WHERE YOU STAND!" rather than having to engage in rational conversation and social niceties. So I've wondered if Klingons, makeup aside, are just really fun to play. Which might mean, for the supporting actors who don't have fully fleshed out characters, that you don't bother too much with nuance and subtle hints of personality. You're just a snarling, blustering barbarian warrior.
__________________
We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile and nothing can grow there; too much, the best of us is washed away.
Deranged Nasat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 8 2012, 01:56 PM   #1510
TheGodBen
Rear Admiral
 
TheGodBen's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Children of Time (***½)

Based off of an old Enterprise episode, , this episode takes that one's brilliant, satisfying, and completely original story and turns it into an abortion allegory. Everyone is tired, but Jadzia wants to have some fun and pressures the guys into doing something risky. She miscalculates, and bang: 8,000 unwanted children. Will the crew abort all those children so that they can continue their normal lives and careers, or will they sacrifice their present happiness and live a bitter, disappointing life on a deserted planet in order to preserve life? In the end the answer is simple: a man made out of magical gelatin tricks the crew into having an abortion against their will, and they soon forget about the entire event. Legislators, take note; this is the solution to this complex moral question.

So, in 6 or 7 generations, 48 people become 8,000. That's pretty impressive population growth. And you have to factor in that only a third of the crew at most are women, and one of them dies, so that only leaves around 15 women to 33 men. And that's not considering that a substantial number of those people are aliens that are sexually incompatible with one another without advanced genetic techniques probably not available to the survivors of the crash. I'm presuming that's why Jadzia and Worf don't have any descendants together but had children outside of their marriage with compatible partners. In fact, necessity probably drove a whole lot of wife-swapping on that planet, I can see why so much of the crew were willing to go through with the crash.

In all seriousness, this is a good episode with a great sci-fi story, great character material, no easy technobabble solutions, and a shocking ending. So why only give it 7/10? It just a bit messy in the execution. One big problem is the way that Oldo is presented to us, he doesn't interact with anyone other than Kira. We never see him with the other colonists that he has been living with for 200 years, so his decision to betray them doesn't have the impact it should. For all we know, Oldo and the colonists don't get along, maybe sacrificing them means little to him. It would have meant more if we had some acknowledgement that Oldo was sacrificing his friends to save Kira, but I suppose doing so would have made things even more unpalatable. Also, and this may seem like a minor quibble, but I don't like the music in this episode. Music is a very personal thing and I'm sure the music worked for most people watching this episode, but for some reason it just doesn't work for me and kept distracting me. So that's an entirely subjective thing that I personally have to rate the episode down for, your mileage probably varies.

Form of... Oldo: 31
__________________
...so many different suns...
TheGodBen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 8 2012, 02:22 PM   #1511
Distorted Humor
Fleet Captain
 
Distorted Humor's Avatar
 
Location: Z'ha'dum
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

So, in 6 or 7 generations, 48 people become 8,000. That's pretty impressive population growth. And you have to factor in that only a third of the crew at most are women, and one of them dies, so that only leaves around 15 women to 33 men.

Exponential growth. and decent lifespan can do it.

Lets say you have 3 generations alive at one time. And assuming there is no cloning or use of artificial wombs or what not.

Avg 4 children per woman
Gen 1 - 48 (15 woman)
gen 2 - 60 (30 woman)
Gen 3- 120 (60 woman)
Gen 4 - 240 (120 woman)
Gen 5 - 480 (240 woman)
Gen 6 - 960 )480 woman)
Gen 7 - 1920 (960 woman)
Gen 8 - 3840 (1920 woman)
Gen 9 - 7680 (3840 woman)

If generation 8 is born, then you only need 1280 of generation 9 or older generations still alive to get to 8,000, and if you have a general goal of baby production, with plenty of land to support food production, 4 is a low number per woman. (I used it since it doubles the population each generation.
__________________
In the Marmalade forest (forest), between the make believe trees, in a cottage cheese cottage! Lives Albie, (Albie,) Albie, (Albie,) Albie the Racist Dragon...
Distorted Humor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 8 2012, 09:21 PM   #1512
Worf'sParmach
Commander
 
Worf'sParmach's Avatar
 
Location: Plano, TX
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

OhGodBen wrote: View Post
And that's not considering that a substantial number of those people are aliens that are sexually incompatible with one another without advanced genetic techniques probably not available to the survivors of the crash. I'm presuming that's why Jadzia and Worf don't have any descendants together but had children outside of their marriage with compatible partners.
I first saw this episode when it aired and I remember thinking that Worf and Jadzia's descendants should be the same if they got married, like Yedrin should have had forehead ridges and spots, you know? It wasn't until over a year later did viewers learn than Jadzia and Worf are biologically imcompatible.
__________________
Obsessing over every detail in the Star Trek Universe since the 1990s
Check out my fanfic (pretty please ): http://www.fanfiction.net/~ginomo
Worf'sParmach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 9 2012, 04:55 PM   #1513
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I always wanted to know... did Jadzia and Worf split up in this timeline? There are Trill with spots and symbionts... no Klingon head ridges. There are Klingonesque people... no Trill spots. Neither Dax or Worf(him especially) seemed bothered by their very obvious breakup. For that matter Kira or Odo didn't seemed to be bothered by Kira apparently hooking up with some random Defiant crew member being there were Bajorians running around too.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 9 2012, 05:26 PM   #1514
Distorted Humor
Fleet Captain
 
Distorted Humor's Avatar
 
Location: Z'ha'dum
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Zombie Redshirt wrote: View Post
I always wanted to know... did Jadzia and Worf split up in this timeline? There are Trill with spots and symbionts... no Klingon head ridges. There are Klingonesque people... no Trill spots. Neither Dax or Worf(him especially) seemed bothered by their very obvious breakup. For that matter Kira or Odo didn't seemed to be bothered by Kira apparently hooking up with some random Defiant crew member being there were Bajorians running around too.
kira dies in that timeline before she could have some kids, but there may very well be other bajoirans on board to provide the DNA.
__________________
In the Marmalade forest (forest), between the make believe trees, in a cottage cheese cottage! Lives Albie, (Albie,) Albie, (Albie,) Albie the Racist Dragon...
Distorted Humor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 9 2012, 05:56 PM   #1515
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Distorted Humor wrote: View Post
Zombie Redshirt wrote: View Post
I always wanted to know... did Jadzia and Worf split up in this timeline? There are Trill with spots and symbionts... no Klingon head ridges. There are Klingonesque people... no Trill spots. Neither Dax or Worf(him especially) seemed bothered by their very obvious breakup. For that matter Kira or Odo didn't seemed to be bothered by Kira apparently hooking up with some random Defiant crew member being there were Bajorians running around too.
kira dies in that timeline before she could have some kids, but there may very well be other bajoirans on board to provide the DNA.
Could be, I just never recall ever seeing a Bajorian officer other than Kira on the Defiant. But possible.

It still doesn't explain Worf and Dax.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
deep space nine, ds9, episode discussion, review

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:24 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.