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Old October 7 2012, 07:43 PM   #16
Timo
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Re: Klingon Bird of Prey (whichever class)

...And ships in the real world do tend to be scale models of each other. There used to be quite a bit of tactical significance to the fact that a gunboat, a destroyer, a cruiser and a battleship could well have identical silhouettes, only varying in size.

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Old October 7 2012, 08:55 PM   #17
Dukhat
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Re: Klingon Bird of Prey (whichever class)

Mister_Atoz wrote: View Post
It was only because they didn't have the budget to build several different models; that is, until the Vor'cha model was built
Though I generally don't like tampering, part of me wishes the new TNG-R versions of these episodes will swap the oversized BOPs with Vorchas or Negh'Vars or something.
For "Yesterday's Enterprise," they couldn't use Vor'chas or Negh'Vars because the dialog explicitly stated that the attacking ships were K'Vort class. Therefore if any CGI updating were to be done, a new ship type would have to be created.

And for "The Defector," they couldn't use Negh'Vars (a ship comparable to the warbirds in size) because the Negh'Var class hadn't been created at that time.

However, I don't think we're going to see anything except the original footage of either episode.
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Old October 7 2012, 10:15 PM   #18
Unicron
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Re: Klingon Bird of Prey (whichever class)

To answer some of the basic points (that haven't already been covered ), Gene Roddenberry was only responsible one specific "rule" which is that there couldn't be an odd number of nacelles. They had to be even to make a balanced warp field, and he seemed to think that having one nacelle was like building a helicopter with only one big rotor, and without the means to counter the rotor's torque so it could fly. Since he wasn't an actual engineer and we've seen designs that either break this rule or ignore other elements, I just ignore it myself. Andrew Probert came up with the rule about nacelles ideally having LoS between them, as with the warbird.

As far as scaling goes, I think FASA made a decent attempt of having a basic hull planform scaled to different configurations, and one can assume that each variant had the proper equipment. The Romulans created the original scout version, in keeping with the TSFS draft initially having a Romulan ship with a cloak, and they gave some hulls to the Klingons as part of an alliance. The Klingons liked the design and decided to produce their own variants, which they weren't supposed to do, as cruiser and frigate type hulls. The Romulans were not pleased when they found out and retaliated by copying the larger frigate variant and producing it for their own fleet.
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Old October 8 2012, 03:20 AM   #19
Rick Sternbach
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Re: Klingon Bird of Prey (whichever class)

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Boeing did "big-ify" the F-18 for the Super Hornet versions
And that was pretty much the aircraft I cited with my editor. Window size and placement don't exactly work, but if I were to draw the K'vort for real (which I didn't in this book), I'd probably change the sizes and locations, and try to nail some plausible number of decks. Could it land like a big ship like Voyager? Maybe. Would be interesting to work out.

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Old October 8 2012, 06:13 AM   #20
Timo
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Re: Klingon Bird of Prey (whichever class)

For "Yesterday's Enterprise," they couldn't use Vor'chas or Negh'Vars because the dialog explicitly stated that the attacking ships were K'Vort class. Therefore if any CGI updating were to be done, a new ship type would have to be created.
Not necessarily. This is an alternate universe, after all - the name K'Vort could apply to either of those existing modern designs in that universe.

We already have to accept that the alternate universe Klingons name their ships differently. The very footage of the K'Vort attack from "Yesterday's Enterprise" is used in "Rascals" to describe the attack of a pair of ships explicated as B'Rel class. And there's no way those two could be as small as Martok's Rotarran, as we see a number of scenes where the two assailants surround the hero ship and demonstrate their considerable size.

Basically, that's bad news for the publication... And didn't we already see a background graphic in DS9 that referred to Martok's ship as being of the K'Vort class?

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Old October 8 2012, 04:42 PM   #21
Dukhat
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Re: Klingon Bird of Prey (whichever class)

Timo wrote: View Post
And didn't we already see a background graphic in DS9 that referred to Martok's ship as being of the K'Vort class?
No, that graphic was not for the Rotarran. It was some other BoP whose escape pod Worf found.

As for the YE alternate universe, I suppose it's possible to use Vor'chas from the prime universe and still call them K'Vort class ships, but why? If they were going to replace the BoPs with new CGI footage, why use a Vor'cha? Why not make a totally new design?

Rick Sternbach wrote: View Post
Window size and placement don't exactly work, but if I were to draw the K'vort for real (which I didn't in this book), I'd probably change the sizes and locations, and try to nail some plausible number of decks.
Mr. Sternbach, I wonder if you could answer a question for me. I had heard a rumor that during the filming for YE, the VFX guys actually drilled some small holes in the BoP model to make windows to suggest a much larger ship than the BoP from Star Trek III. The rumor goes on to say that the viewers couldn't see the holes on screen because of the low resolution and small screens of TV sets at the time. Is there any truth to this rumor?
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Old October 8 2012, 05:19 PM   #22
Boris Skrbic
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Re: Klingon Bird of Prey (whichever class)

See here.
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Old October 8 2012, 06:27 PM   #23
Dukhat
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Re: Klingon Bird of Prey (whichever class)

Boris wrote: View Post
Thanks. Ironically, I had posted in that topic and had forgotten all about it.
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Old October 10 2012, 12:29 AM   #24
Rick Sternbach
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Re: Klingon Bird of Prey (whichever class)

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
And didn't we already see a background graphic in DS9 that referred to Martok's ship as being of the K'Vort class?
No, that graphic was not for the Rotarran. It was some other BoP whose escape pod Worf found.

As for the YE alternate universe, I suppose it's possible to use Vor'chas from the prime universe and still call them K'Vort class ships, but why? If they were going to replace the BoPs with new CGI footage, why use a Vor'cha? Why not make a totally new design?

Rick Sternbach wrote: View Post
Window size and placement don't exactly work, but if I were to draw the K'vort for real (which I didn't in this book), I'd probably change the sizes and locations, and try to nail some plausible number of decks.
Mr. Sternbach, I wonder if you could answer a question for me. I had heard a rumor that during the filming for YE, the VFX guys actually drilled some small holes in the BoP model to make windows to suggest a much larger ship than the BoP from Star Trek III. The rumor goes on to say that the viewers couldn't see the holes on screen because of the low resolution and small screens of TV sets at the time. Is there any truth to this rumor?
No idea. All of the BOP images that I studied from DS9 appeared to be a normal B'rel class vessel without any additional windows. Perhaps by DS9 they patched up whatever was done during TNG.

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Old October 10 2012, 02:32 PM   #25
Savious
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Re: Klingon Bird of Prey (whichever class)

OK; so I guess the bottom line is; there never was a good explanation why the wings folded down to attack and up for warp flight.

And, not to sound like a whining geek; but no one agrees with my idea that the wings should have folded down for warp flight, (if the nacelles where concealed in the wings) and horizontal for combat maneuvers.

But, seriously, thanks for all the posts, I did learn a few things here; like it wasn’t just the writers being unknowledgeable about the BoP; but that it was a budget issue which caused the two versions.
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Old October 10 2012, 09:29 PM   #26
The Badger
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Re: Klingon Bird of Prey (whichever class)

Just out of interest...how often do we see BoP's with raised or lowered wings?

Obviously there's a lot of it in TSFS, lowering the wings for combat, raising them to land. The same for TVH, which uses the same ship.

Do the larger K'Vort types raise/lower their wings? It might only the B'rel class scouts that have variable geometry.
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Old October 10 2012, 11:28 PM   #27
Davros
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Re: Klingon Bird of Prey (whichever class)

The original series still has me thinking that the Bird Of Prey is a Romulan ship, not a Klingon one.
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Old October 11 2012, 09:15 AM   #28
Timo
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Re: Klingon Bird of Prey (whichever class)

...Despite there never having been a ship called "Bird of Prey" in Romulan hands, in any of the shows?

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Old October 11 2012, 01:30 PM   #29
Savious
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Re: Klingon Bird of Prey (whichever class)

The Original Series had a Romulan Bird of Prey, which looked nothing like the Klingon one introduced years later in Star Trek III, Search for Spock.

However, as I understand it, originally, the script for Star Trek III, Search for Spock, had it as a Romulan Bird of Prey, and that the Klingon Commander was going to steal it from the Romulans. That particular plot line, however was written out later, and it became just a Klingon Bird of Prey; thereby giving the Klingon’s cloaking technology in which they never possessed before.
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Old October 11 2012, 02:51 PM   #30
Timo
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Re: Klingon Bird of Prey (whichever class)

The Original Series had a Romulan Bird of Prey
No, it didn't.

It had a Romulan vessel in "Balance of Terror" and "Deadly Years" that was known as... "the Romulan vessel". Or, alternately, as "the enemy vessel".

"Bird of Prey" is a designation only ever applied on Klingon starships in the episodes and movies.

thereby giving the Klingon’s cloaking technology in which they never possessed before
We were never exactly told that Klingons wouldn't know how to become invisible. Lately, ENT has given us "retroactive precedent" that they did. And an invisible ship is a good explanation to how the Klingons were able to surprise the war-ready Enterprise in the teaser of "Errand of Mercy"...

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