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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old October 5 2012, 08:23 PM   #31
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

I thought it was sad, but it worked. Worf tried to give his brother an honorable death, but Starfleet stopped him. After that, his brother was in agony and Worf loved him too much to let him suffer for his sake. He had no idea when he might get his honor back or if he'd keep it while walking the line between 2 cultures. If there were a battle he could have sent his brother to die in, then I think he would have done that, but as it were, he did the best thing he could do. That's what makes it so tragic. I think that we don't see him mention his brother when he gets his honor back because who would he say something like that to? He wouldn't, not even to Jadzia unless it was very quietly in the middle of the night at some point. I think he carries a lot inside of him and he's used to not sharing much. Klingon warriors aren't prone to spilling their feelings much anyway. FWIW, I liked his brother as a character too.
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Old October 5 2012, 10:56 PM   #32
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Timo wrote: View Post
Erasing someone's memory without consent. That is almost as bad as murder...
...Which Klingons do often enough, and consider a duty rather than a crime.

Really, blatant disregard of an inferior's or chattel's concerns is the consistently portrayed Klingon Way. If said inferior or dependent is a blood relative, that's all the more reason to caft all sentiment aside and do the Warrior Thing.

As pointed out above, Worf had already tentatively tried to suggest the soft approach and gotten vilified for it, in "Birthright". That'd make him less likely to publicly go human again; if anything, he grew more Klingon again during his DS9 years.

It's not that Worf would have been inconsistent or evil or anything. He was just Worf, our adorable slaughterer and wife-beater, made more popular than ever by the addition of those qualities to his character. No, it's solely a question of whether Bashir should have treated a Klingon patient as a human one.

Timo Saloniemi
Yeah , you ignored the rest of the sentence that you half quoted. I think its fair to say that any normal klingon would consider this solution to be worse than death.

I understand worfs half human, although I dont think that really excuses him at all. Many humans including myself would consider a total memory wipe a worse fate than death.
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Old October 6 2012, 04:47 PM   #33
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Kurn wasn't a "normal" Klingon. I doubt "normal" Klingons would consider him a Klingon at all thanks to the repercussions of Worf's actions and Gowron publicly stripping the Mogh of House of everything. It's reasonable to ask whether in Kurn's case if his fate is actually worse than suicide?
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Old October 6 2012, 07:25 PM   #34
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

I suppose it would be interesting to ask the general public whether they'd rather be dead or be given a new chance at a decent life, but without their memories.

Too bad there's no Klingon public to ask.
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Old October 6 2012, 07:57 PM   #35
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Yeah , you ignored the rest of the sentence that you half quoted.
Yup, did that for emphasis, to address an issue rather than to address your sentence. Sorry!

I think its fair to say that any normal klingon would consider this solution to be worse than death.
Why should that be of any concern? It's not punishment that Worf is imposing on Kurn. It is aid. The point is to liberate Kurn of the burden of having to live a wronged life. Killing him is one way to end his life and let him try out another one (if one believes in life after death, that is). Killing his personality and giving him a new one is another. Nobody is concerned about old Kurn's welfare or feelings, because old Kurn is spoiled goods. But there may now be a new Kurn in this life or the next. And Kurn might actually appreciate the former prospect, the technical impossibility of such appreciation aside.

Granted, old-fashioned Klingons might balk. But they balk at all modern nonsense such as bandages or ranged weapons. There are plenty of modern Klingons around.

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Old October 6 2012, 10:56 PM   #36
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

There is a few episodes of DS9 that I disagree with the ethics both on a right-wrong level and also out did not buy the character would do that. (another that comes to mind is used WMD to "exchange" colonies...

But the mind wipe is up there with that on a more personal level. Think B5 did it much better with the "Death of Personality" being like capital punishment.
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Old October 7 2012, 12:42 AM   #37
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Is Kurn making every effort to get himself killed at the earliest opportunity really any better?
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Old October 7 2012, 01:15 AM   #38
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

True, but you have to realize how odd Klingons are. Deliberatly getting yourself killed by someone else's hand is considered ok and will get you into Klingon heaven.

Killing yourself directly is dishonorable and you'll go to Stova Kor or whatever they call it.

You have to figure that Kurn or the average Klingon would see getting his or her's memory wiped and starting over as a new person the coward's way out.

A human in Kurn's sitiation would have thought, "Ok, good, I have shelter, food and friends. I 'll rebuild from here and get all my family honor and wealth back one day, I swear it."

Nope, not a Klingon. They have to be soldiers, in Klingon society, at all times, and they refuse to compromise with any other situation.

With that type of thinking Kurn would totally freak out if he knew what happened to him.

If he had just hung in there, he would have gotten his honor back and a lot more.

Last edited by Nightdiamond; October 7 2012 at 02:28 AM.
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Old October 7 2012, 02:51 AM   #39
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

So...a non-average Klingon dealt with a Klingon in a non-average situation in a non-average manner...

I think the episode soundly established that Kurn had absolutely no interest in just waiting around. He was actively trying to get himself killed, and possibly endangering others in the process. If Worf hadn't done what he did, Kurn would have been dead one way or another long before Worf got his honor back.

Frankly I have no idea how I'd handle it if I had a friend who was making obvious efforts to kill themselves on a regular basis and couldn't force them to get help.
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Old October 7 2012, 03:01 AM   #40
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Jon-o'-lantern wrote: View Post
Kurn wasn't a "normal" Klingon. I doubt "normal" Klingons would consider him a Klingon at all thanks to the repercussions of Worf's actions and Gowron publicly stripping the Mogh of House of everything. It's reasonable to ask whether in Kurn's case if his fate is actually worse than suicide?
I meant normal klingon relative to worf. As in he wasn't raised by humans, he didn't grow up in a human world with human views and beliefs influencing his development.

He grew up a klingon, in a klingon world, with normal klingon beliefs... And I think it's fairly easy to assume that a klingon with that background and belief system would absolutely hate the idea of a memory wipe/ false identity. They'd probably consider it a dishonorable lie as well as the cowardly way out.
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Old October 7 2012, 05:09 AM   #41
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

^ But is it worse than suicide and eternal damnation?
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Old October 7 2012, 05:16 AM   #42
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Mr_Homn wrote: View Post

I understand worfs half human, although I dont think that really excuses him at all. Many humans including myself would consider a total memory wipe a worse fate than death.
Worf is all Klingon.
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Old October 7 2012, 06:36 AM   #43
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Festering Esper wrote: View Post
Mr_Homn wrote: View Post

I understand worfs half human, although I dont think that really excuses him at all. Many humans including myself would consider a total memory wipe a worse fate than death.
Worf is all Klingon.
lol i meant raised by humans, dunno why i typed half human. he might as well be though, with the way he acts
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Old October 7 2012, 06:38 AM   #44
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

That's the problem. I mean, anyone else would have used the situation to get back on their feet and plan to somehow get their honor back.

Klingons are locked into this dishonor or death mode, the problem is, as pointed out already, Worf got his honor back a year later.

Kurn wouldn't even consider that option.

Worf..he was ultra Klingon-- he took everything literally to the point that even other Klingons couldn't understand him...
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Old October 7 2012, 01:47 PM   #45
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Kurn should've known better than to think death was the only way out. Worf had lost his honor once and gotten it back again, why did Kurn think Worf wouldn't be able to pull it off another time?
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