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Old April 4 2012, 04:54 PM   #76
Jose Tyler
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

Timo wrote: View Post
When have we ever seen those features simply disappear?
Never. Which is why it's up to us to decide whether it would be possible for them to appear, e.g. when Kirk opens a shutter in "Mark of Gideon"...

And those small rectangular shapes, some lit and some dark, all over the saucer and the engineering hull? Also windows. They were meant to look like windows. There were designed to look like windows.
Indeed. Things only get compicated when the "window" is of an odd shape or size (say, the big square things on top of the saucer rim, or the three big circles at bow). But those are probably windows as well, again because it would make little sense for a random selection of sensors to be "dark" while it makes perfect sense for a random selection of windows to be.

Windows that double as sensor ports sound extremely awkward,a s they would perform poorly in both roles. If there's sensor equipment there, it has to be close to the window, leaving no room for the alternate use. Or it has to be moveable, which is extremely awkward: the sensors should be in active position about 99% of the time, waiting for the unexpected, so it would be difficult to justify moving them out of position, like, ever. And what sort of a sensor would emit yellow light? (Well, the sort housed behind the three large domes of the ship, of course, but that's a different shade of yellow from the one seen behind the windows.)

Timo Saloniemi
Just taking a quick look at the Smithsonian Enterprise model, I count roughly 21 "windows" on the starboard side. A handful of the "windows" towards the aft section are for the observation area as seen in CotK. So that leaves 16 or 17 windows for lounges or crew uses. Considering the Constitution Class has a crew of @430 out in space for extended missions, 16 or so rooms with windows doesn't seem excessive. Also, I'm pretty sure the TNG Tech Manual talks about how some windows can be opened as evacuation and EVA points in an emergency. Scotty's lads have to have a chance to get out if things really go south. I'm thinking that sometimes a window is just a window...
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Old April 4 2012, 05:00 PM   #77
scotpens
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

Really, people! This whole “windows as anything else but windows” thing is getting just as silly as sinking the bridge into the B-C deck teardrop to make it face forward.

The bridge is offset 36 degrees, dammit!
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Old April 4 2012, 08:51 PM   #78
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

Ya need to lobby T'Bonz to unban Captain Robert April. You clearly miss him
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Old April 4 2012, 10:14 PM   #79
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

PvtKtara wrote: View Post
Ya need to lobby T'Bonz to unban Captain Robert April. You clearly miss him
Wow, he's banned??



OT:
I suppose it wouldn't look like 10-Forward, but having a bunch of cross braces and beams and some windows would be pretty par for the course with TOS. There's pipes and beams all over the place. Probably not a ton of uninterrupted usable space, so put some windows and a few deluxe cabins.
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Old April 4 2012, 11:46 PM   #80
Mytran
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

What on earth did CRA get banned for?I've read his last few posts and they're hardly inflammatory stuff

Regarding the "windows as viewports", I am basingmy views in no small part on what we saw on TOS and movies - in other words, very rare use of viewport style windows, be that in cabins, lounges or whatever. Compare that to TNG, where viewports are everywhere! TOS on the other hand had a much more "submarine" style visual approach - yes there was the occassional viewport seen, but these were rare.
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Old April 5 2012, 01:06 AM   #81
Navigator_NCC2120
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

Forbin wrote: View Post
If Rand's quarters were on deck 12, why does her door say 3C 46? Hmmm?
Maybe it means Section 3, Deck C, Room 46. The number C in the hexadecimal numbering system is equivalent to 12 in the decimal system. I recall years ago in either my French class or Computer class the instructor stating that the French use 3 numbering systems: Octal (base 8), Decimal (base 10), and Hexadecimal (base 16). Maybe Starfleet uses hexadecimal instead of decimal.

So Section 3, Deck C, Room 46 in hexadecimal is equal to Section 3, Deck 12, Room 70 in decimal.

Just a thought,


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Last edited by Navigator_NCC2120; April 5 2012 at 01:43 AM.
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Old April 5 2012, 01:12 AM   #82
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

Mytran wrote: View Post
What on earth did CRA get banned for?I've read his last few posts and they're hardly inflammatory stuff
I had no idea Captain Robert April got banned either. I just thought he was busy working on that Star Trek book he had as his avatar.


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Old April 5 2012, 01:48 AM   #83
BK613
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

Navigator_NCC2120 wrote: View Post
Forbin wrote: View Post
If Rand's quarters were on deck 12, why does her door say 3C 46? Hmmm?
Maybe it means Section 3, Deck C, Room 46. The number C in the hexadecimal numbering system is equivalent to 12 in the decimal system. I recall years ago in either my French class or Computer class the instructor stating that the French use 3 numbering systems: Octal (base 8), Decimal (base 10), and Hexadecimal (base 16). Maybe Starfleet uses hexadecimal instead of decimal.

So Section 3, Deck C, Room 46 in hexadecimal is equal to Room 3, Deck 12, Room 70 in decimal.

Just a thought,


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For all we know, they could have swiped those labels off of existing doors on the Desilu lot. You know, like cutlery from the commissary.

They are part of the "appearance of complexity" that adds to the background believability. Like stardates, GNDN labels, patches on multicolored uniforms, and windows. Details that added to the verisimilitude but without the over-the-top forethought of a TNG Tech Manual.

The windows, of course, were not really intended to inform about the interior of the ship but to inform about the scale of the ship. As in, "Wow! Look at those windows! This thing is as tall as a twenty story building!"
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Old April 5 2012, 02:11 AM   #84
Unicron
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

Mytran wrote: View Post
What on earth did CRA get banned for?I've read his last few posts and they're hardly inflammatory stuff
As with most posters who were around for quite a long time, it's a long story. I'll leave it at that.
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Old April 6 2012, 04:23 PM   #85
Forbin
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

April is over at www.hobbytalk.com if anybody wants to say hi.
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Old October 7 2012, 01:35 AM   #86
Robert Comsol
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

Mytran wrote: View Post
I'm glad the pylon issue has been raised - it's certainly a weird point in the construction of a Starship!

Regarding the in-universe naming of these decks, it only really occurs in three episodes:

Mudd’s Women: Kirk’s cabin is on this deck [i.e. 12] (apparently) and has a decent stretch of corridor adjoining it. As has been repeatedly pointed out, there is no way to squeeze this all into the pylon (horizontally anyway - thanks Timo for your usual skill in bursting the envelope!)

Enemy Within: Rand’s quarters are blatantly on this deck (G. T. Fisher calls for aid from an intercom) and even more corridor is visible prior to this on Evilkirk’s drunken ramble to her door. Regarding this ramble, why is Evilkirk even here? The presence of Rand’s cabin seems to take him almost by surprise, just a fortunate opportunity to be taken advantage of. I would postulate that he is going back to his cabin and just happens to pass her own along the way. In fact, at this point in the series, “Deck 12” is almost being treated as the main deck of the ship, hardly suitable if that deck were situated in the pylon neck.

Dagger Of The Mind: Here, Van Gelder is spotted on Deck 14, having (apparently) exited the Transporter Room and started roaming the corridors. There is not indication that he ever used a turbolift – if he had, wouldn’t he have gone somewhere more secluded? Or if his ultimate destination was in fact the bridge – why not there? To detour via the pylon neck is an odd choice, even for him! ...

So, if the lower saucer rim deck is deck 7 (personally I think deck 5 is more accurate but that’s another debate) then the pylon takes on decks 8, 9 and 10, leaving the Engineering hull to begin fresh at deck 11. Deck 12 is then situated slightly down into the secondary hull, plenty of space for everything seen on screen!

P.S.
If the pylon neck decks end at deck 10, this is similar to the lowest of the saucer decks. Maybe the emergency separation actually occurs at the bottom of the pylon instead of the top? This would have the added bonus of keeping all the numbered decks together…

P.P.S.
I just realised, this last bit has been thought of before, in the Star Trek Officer's Manual:


(click for link to full size - thanks to http://www.cygnus-x1.net for this resource)
This seems to be the thread I was looking for and I hope Mytran forgives that I'm cannibalizing his post as a starting point.

A long time ago I was biased because of the diagram in The Star Trek Officer's Manual believing that saucer separation would require a section of the neck to come along with the saucer, I now believe this to be different and its just the saucer that separates, leaving the engineering hull with the neck section behind.
The Making of Star Trek only provided deck numbers for the primary hull and deck 11 was the lowest, no deck numbers were given for the engineering hull (I believe for TMP the lowest one for the engineering hull was 18 or 19).

Therefore, I believe the engineering decks start at the top of the neck or pylon section with engineering deck 1. According to a cutaway I did back in the 1980's (I used the pylon's / engineering hull's windows as reference for deck height) I arrived at 18 engineering decks and decks 12 and 14 would just be in the middle of the engineering hull and there'd even be windows that could match the windows of Kirk's provisional quarters (while his own were renovated; this is "Mudd's Women" that just takes place shortly after WNM and everything is in the process or just recently has been upgraded) - one is circular, one rectangular (on the port side the windows may just be square...).

Then why don't they say "engineering deck"? Since there are no decks exceeding deck 11 in the saucer, deck 12 can only be an engineering deck.

Then why doesn't Spock say "engineering deck 2" in "Enterprise Incident" when he accompanies the Romulan Commander to her quarters (in the neck)?
In "Conscience of the King" Kevin Riley stole a phaser from "H deck". "The Doomsday Machine" established that the shuttlecraft hangar is not just on deck 1X but that this entire engineering deck is labeled "hangar deck" - or "H deck".
"E deck" might be the deck with the "Engineering Section" (not to be confused with the "Engine Control Room" in the saucer) and deck 2 in the saucer might also have an alphabetic designation. Thus the turbolift computer understands that Spock wants to travel to engineering deck 2.

Bob
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; October 7 2012 at 01:48 AM.
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Old October 7 2012, 06:14 AM   #87
Albertese
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

^^^

Seems a little wacky to me, but then, I seem to recall looking at RL ship plans from about a century ago where decks were labeled using such convoluted schemes, so it's probably not without precedent.

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Old October 7 2012, 07:36 AM   #88
Mytran
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

That's some fine extrapolation! (especially H-deck and E-Deck). However I need to add another fly to the ointment:

In The Naked Time Uhura reports that Sulu is running around in "level 2 corridor 3". If this "level 2" is "Engineering Level 2" (otherwise wouldn't she say "Deck 2") then there are a LOT of corridors crammed into the top of the pylon - impossibly so
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Old October 7 2012, 04:18 PM   #89
blssdwlf
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

Well we do know that Engineering has many decks.

"Where No Man Has Gone Before"
CREWMAN: Engineering deck three, can you give damage report?
"The Conscience of the King"
KIRK: Lieutenant Kevin Riley in communications, I wish to have him transferred down to the engineering decks.
"The Corbomite Maneuver"
KIRK: Helmsman, engineering decks could have been faster, too.
"The Enemy Within"
KIRK: The lower levels. The Engineering deck.
...
SCOTT: Mister Scott, sir, on the lower level of the Engineering deck.
And there are references to decks in general by number such as "Deck 12", "Deck 14", "Deck 8" and also "H Deck", "B Deck".

In my personal view, I think there are probably multiple deck schemes going on.
  • A named deck, such as "Engineering Deck" can contain multiple levels. There are also multiple "Engineering Decks", most likely because of the Engineering section.
  • Decks 1-20 (or more) are probably all decks, top to bottom. In my version of the Enterprise, Deck 10 is the neck area. Deck 11 is the top of the Engineering section for me. This is partly due to how many decks I can fit in on the Primary hull.
  • Alpha letter decks are probably primary hull decks - since "B Deck" seems to be a good place to sabotage impulse engines while in orbit in "Court Martial".


Anyway, that's just my thinking and YMMV

Last edited by blssdwlf; October 7 2012 at 04:35 PM.
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Old October 7 2012, 04:39 PM   #90
Albertese
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

^^^
So, where is B deck? Immediately beneath the bridge? Why would that be a good place to sabotage the impulse engines from? If it's some place closer to the impulse engines, then why would it be called "B deck"?

Also, the WNMHGB reference... does it have to be "Engineering Deck 3" as in the third of several Engineering Decks, or could it be "Engineering, Deck 3" as in one of several Engineering stations, one of which happens to be located on Deck 3?
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