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Old October 6 2012, 07:01 PM   #31
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

^ The Mirror Universe is different. It's not an alternate timeline created by time travel; it always existed. It's a completely separate universe. The same people's births and lives are simultaneously no more, and no less, likely to happen in the MU than they are in any other.
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Old October 6 2012, 07:13 PM   #32
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ The Mirror Universe is different. It's not an alternate timeline created by time travel; it always existed. It's a completely separate universe. The same people's births and lives are simultaneously no more, and no less, likely to happen in the MU than they are in any other.
But, seriously, the odds that a completely different universe would bring an Enterprise with the same crew members, at the same ranks, to the same planet to negotiate with the same alien leader during the same cosmic storm doesn't kind of blow the idea that different circumstances lead to different outcomes out of the water?

I'm just saying there's room to fudge here . . . .
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Old October 6 2012, 07:22 PM   #33
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ The Mirror Universe is different. It's not an alternate timeline created by time travel; it always existed. It's a completely separate universe. The same people's births and lives are simultaneously no more, and no less, likely to happen in the MU than they are in any other.
Is there anything from the shows or even books to support that? AFAIK, the books and comics have given several divergence point stories, and William Shatner even pitched an Enterprise episode about the point at which the timelines split.
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Old October 6 2012, 07:26 PM   #34
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

^ I admit there's nothing to support this viewpoint, but nothing to deny it either. There's no evidence that someone travelled back in time and altered history to result in the MU's creation (like Nero has done with the Abrams timeline). I prefer to draw the distinction between an alternate universe and an alternate timeline.
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Old October 6 2012, 07:40 PM   #35
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

Didn't Enterprise imply that the point of divergence occurred when Zefram Cochrane went off-script and killed those Vulcans at First Contact . . . ?
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Old October 6 2012, 07:42 PM   #36
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

^ No, it didn't. That was a symptom of the divergence, not a cause of it. There's no proof that the MU didn't exist long before that.
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Old October 6 2012, 07:49 PM   #37
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

I always figured the butterfly effect was used as a justification or plot device rather than an actual plot point. They'll just use it to justify any changes they want that might not otherwise make sense. If they want a NuPicard, all the flapping butterfly wings in the world won't stop it. Nor will they stop NuKirk fighting the Borg if that's what they want.
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Old October 6 2012, 08:01 PM   #38
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

Based solely on the known events of the first film I don't see why the TNG crew as individuals would necessarily be that different, though of course whether they all end up together and what their ship would look like have probably been altered. That said, it's certainly possible that differences could exist, especially if any of them had ancestors on any of the ships shown in the first film.
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Old October 8 2012, 10:49 PM   #39
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Surely I can't be alone in that respect?
Honestly, I wouldn't know they had changed the size of the ship if people hadn't pointed it out on-line. I don't recall any dialogue in the movie (or in the original TV episodes, for that matter) regarding the actual dimensions of the ship. Onscreen, the Enterprise looks like a big shiny object in space, the same as it always has.
Exactly how I see it. I didn't notice the supposed scale change until someone on the net mentioned it...
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Old October 8 2012, 11:44 PM   #40
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

EliyahuQeoni wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Surely I can't be alone in that respect?
Honestly, I wouldn't know they had changed the size of the ship if people hadn't pointed it out on-line. I don't recall any dialogue in the movie (or in the original TV episodes, for that matter) regarding the actual dimensions of the ship. Onscreen, the Enterprise looks like a big shiny object in space, the same as it always has.
Exactly how I see it. I didn't notice the supposed scale change until someone on the net mentioned it...
Hell, if a disruptor was held to my head, I still couldn't tell you what the dimensions of a Constitution-class starship are supposed to be. It has nothing to do with the story or the characters.
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Old October 9 2012, 01:18 AM   #41
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Abrams' master plan is to do three movies on the assumption that his universe re-merges with the original by the time he's done and well before the 24th C, with no one the wiser that the past was "wrong." Except for Uhura and the Spocks of course, and everyone they tell.


Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ The Mirror Universe is different. It's not an alternate timeline created by time travel; it always existed. It's a completely separate universe. The same people's births and lives are simultaneously no more, and no less, likely to happen in the MU than they are in any other.
The Abrams U could be analogous to the MU, a parallel universe that always existed. If there are two, then why stop there? why not three? Why not three quadrillion? it's easier to envision the Abrams U as being one of many parallel universes that naturally exist than start worrying about butterfly effects.

But dramatic logic overrides everything, which is why I think the two universes really are being treated as different from the MU, and that they will merge together before Abrams is done.
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Old October 9 2012, 01:28 AM   #42
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

DonIago wrote: View Post
Based solely on the known events of the first film I don't see why the TNG crew as individuals would necessarily be that different, though of course whether they all end up together and what their ship would look like have probably been altered. That said, it's certainly possible that differences could exist, especially if any of them had ancestors on any of the ships shown in the first film.
The existence of a human being depends on a very specific set of circumstances. Change any one of these things and you will greatly alter history, such that it is extremely unlikely that this same person will exist in the same way. Remember: butterfly effect.

Let's take Picard, for example. The reason he is who he is, is because his parents met at a very specific time, married, produced him and Robert, etc. Now it is true that the divergence of timelines took place long before either of these men were born. Their parents could have been alive at the time, but let's assume they weren't. Who's to say that any of the Picard grandparents even met in the Abramsverse? Nero's attack on Earth could have delayed Grandpa's shuttle flight, so that he never meets Grandma, etc. Now do you see what can happen?

And even if the Picard ancestors all meet and produce the children they originally did, who's to say they'll be the same? Perhaps in the new timeline, some of these couples decide to have children earlier (i.e. nuChekov) or later. Perhaps they have daughters instead of sons. Etc. etc.
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Old October 9 2012, 01:28 AM   #43
Temis the Vorta
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ The Mirror Universe is different. It's not an alternate timeline created by time travel; it always existed. It's a completely separate universe. The same people's births and lives are simultaneously no more, and no less, likely to happen in the MU than they are in any other.
But, seriously, the odds that a completely different universe would bring an Enterprise with the same crew members, at the same ranks, to the same planet to negotiate with the same alien leader during the same cosmic storm doesn't kind of blow the idea that different circumstances lead to different outcomes out of the water?

I'm just saying there's room to fudge here . . . .
The Many Worlds hypothesis makes the most sense since it explains any combination of qualities, no matter how unlikely, as being mandatory for at least one universe. And if the cameras happen to be pointed at a conveniently arranged universe instead of the one where everything is underwater or dinosaurs are intelligent or it rains donuts, then that's hardly the writers' fault.
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Old October 9 2012, 01:31 AM   #44
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

Come to think of it, the MU could Be an offshoot universe too. Edith Keeler's at fault there.
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Old October 9 2012, 01:34 AM   #45
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Re: What If It All Went Nu?

^ It could be, but I doubt it. Weren't the opening credits of 'In a Mirror, Darkly' implying that the divergence occurred during, or roughly equivalent to, World War I?

Besides, if the altered reality in "City..." was the Mirror timeline, then wouldn't Kirk and crew have detected the ISS Enterprise in orbit? There was NOTHING up there when they came back through the Guardian.
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