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Old October 5 2012, 10:33 PM   #16
MacLeod
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Re: Did we ever see anyone vote in the Federation?

Sci wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
A week to count all the votes, in some countries the result of an election is known within 12hours of polls closing. And that's wiith paper votes.
The largest of those democratic countries (India, population 1.2 billion) has a population that's likely something in the area of 0.12935051111% the size of the Federation's population.

[This is assuming 155 Federation Member states and an average Federation Member population of 6 billion; an average Federation Member colony population of 12 million and an average of 3 Member colonies per Member; an average Federation colony population of 100,000 and 123 Federation colonies; to yield a total population of nine hundred thirty-five billion, five hundred ninety-two million, three hundred thousand (935,592,300,000).]

Bottom line: It's ridiculous to expect a democracy the size of the Federation to be able to count all of its votes with care and accuracy in only one Earth day.
For paper ballots yes, but an electronic ballot system should be able to yield results within a day,

And whilst the population for the UFP might be close to a trillion as you say. You forgot to account for voting age, which could halve that number.
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Old October 5 2012, 11:02 PM   #17
Sci
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Re: Did we ever see anyone vote in the Federation?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
A week to count all the votes, in some countries the result of an election is known within 12hours of polls closing. And that's wiith paper votes.
The largest of those democratic countries (India, population 1.2 billion) has a population that's likely something in the area of 0.12935051111% the size of the Federation's population.

[This is assuming 155 Federation Member states and an average Federation Member population of 6 billion; an average Federation Member colony population of 12 million and an average of 3 Member colonies per Member; an average Federation colony population of 100,000 and 123 Federation colonies; to yield a total population of nine hundred thirty-five billion, five hundred ninety-two million, three hundred thousand (935,592,300,000).]

Bottom line: It's ridiculous to expect a democracy the size of the Federation to be able to count all of its votes with care and accuracy in only one Earth day.
For paper ballots yes, but an electronic ballot system should be able to yield results within a day,
Whose day?

You're talking about something in the area of 500 different planets, starships, stations, outposts, and starbases, all of which use different local calenders and none of which would have identical "days." Any given planet's "day" would by definition start at different times, end at different times, and last for differing lengths of time.

Then there's the basic logistics of voting that we're all familiar with. Then there's the challenge of ensuring voter security in an electronic format. Then there's the challenge of data transmission and ensuring transmission security. Then there's the time delay in sending and receiving such information from one side of the Federation -- and beyond, since you're also talking about starships out on long-range exploration missions beyond Federation space -- to the other when the UFP is itself so large that it takes months for all but the fastest of Starfleet ships to traverse it. Then there's the challenge in putting it all together. Then you've to factor in the time it takes for two independent auditing firms to go over everything to make sure it's all kosher.

So, yeah, I'd say it's perfectly reasonable to say it takes seven Earth days to reach an accurate conclusion.

And besides -- what's the rush? It's silly to presume that you must know who wins that same day. Our ancestors understood that -- in 19th Century America, for instance, weeks could go by before the winner of a presidential election might be announced. It's silly to demand instant gratification on something like this.

And whilst the population for the UFP might be close to a trillion as you say. You forgot to account for voting age, which could halve that number.
There's no way to include that factor one way or the other, because we don't know what the age of majority is for different Federation Member's cultures. For all we know, Sulamid offspring are considered to have reached the age of majority at six months. All we can go on is a reasonable guestimate of overall population size.
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Old October 5 2012, 11:40 PM   #18
MacLeod
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Re: Did we ever see anyone vote in the Federation?

^Are you discussing the actual time need for people to vote. Or the time need to calcualte those votes?

And where do you get the idea that you need two independant firms to audit it?

And what took days or weeks centuries ago, doesn't mean it has to take that long today.

It could be a simple case of a retina scan/thumb print/dna scan to verify a person and then pushing a button on a console. And when the polls close simply a matter of pushing a button to pull up the results.

True it could take days or weeks for some votes from the more remote ships and planets to reach Earth.

In an electronic form the results should be availble within hours, the actual process of voting could take days. Besides for more remote worlds they simply vote earlier. So if it takes 2 days for a subspace radio message to reach Earth, they vote 2 days befoe Earth.
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Old October 6 2012, 12:06 AM   #19
Sci
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Re: Did we ever see anyone vote in the Federation?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
^Are you discussing the actual time need for people to vote. Or the time need to calcualte those votes?
Both.

And where do you get the idea that you need two independant firms to audit it?
This was an established part of Federation electoral procedure in the novel A Time for War, A Time for Peace.

And what took days or weeks centuries ago, doesn't mean it has to take that long today.
No one's talking about today. We're talking about a fictional super-state in the future that has a higher population than has ever existed in human history. It's just silly to expect something like that not to take longer.

It could be a simple case of a retina scan/thumb print/dna scan to verify a person and then pushing a button on a console. And when the polls close simply a matter of pushing a button to pull up the results.
No, because you've also got to have safeguards in place to ensure that no one has installed any malicious programs designed to fabricate election results. Electronic security is a major consideration.
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Old October 6 2012, 12:26 AM   #20
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Re: Did we ever see anyone vote in the Federation?

I'm with Sci here. What's the rush? For something this important, better to take the time to get it right than to demand instant gratification.
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Old October 6 2012, 12:40 AM   #21
Therin of Andor
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Re: Did we ever see anyone vote in the Federation?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
And we learned that Vulcan has a 100% voter turnout.
Logical.
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Old October 6 2012, 01:55 AM   #22
TerraUnam
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Re: Did we ever see anyone vote in the Federation?

I've been a Poll Clerk and Deputy Returning Officer in Canada in three elections. It takes a half hour to count the votes, and an hour to fill out all the paper work balancing ballots issued against ballots cast, spoiled ballots, and other stuff. Worse if the Poll Clerk's list of names crossed off doesn't match the number of ballots issued. That's usually a person's eye gliding over one name.

But results are in in three hours of polling, though it isn't official until a week later, the count my the DRO and Poll Clerk is only considered "preliminary" in Canadian law. Everything has to be counted again by the riding Returning Officer, or if the candidates are separated by less that 100 votes, a judge.
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Old October 6 2012, 02:35 AM   #23
Sci
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Re: Did we ever see anyone vote in the Federation?

TerraUnam wrote: View Post
I've been a Poll Clerk and Deputy Returning Officer in Canada in three elections. It takes a half hour to count the votes, and an hour to fill out all the paper work balancing ballots issued against ballots cast, spoiled ballots, and other stuff. Worse if the Poll Clerk's list of names crossed off doesn't match the number of ballots issued. That's usually a person's eye gliding over one name.

But results are in in three hours of polling, though it isn't official until a week later, the count my the DRO and Poll Clerk is only considered "preliminary" in Canadian law. Everything has to be counted again by the riding Returning Officer, or if the candidates are separated by less that 100 votes, a judge.
Exactly. It's all more complicated than just adding things up once.
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Old October 6 2012, 03:47 AM   #24
BillJ
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Re: Did we ever see anyone vote in the Federation?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Drago-Kazov wrote: View Post
I mean for an enlightened Federation we had not seen a whole lot of voter activity.
If it served a story they would have shown it, otherwise it occured outside of the episodes.
Yeah. But it's never even mentioned.

It seems Deep Space Nine would've been ripe for a storyline about the civilian political process during a time of war.
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Old October 6 2012, 04:19 AM   #25
Sci
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Re: Did we ever see anyone vote in the Federation?

BillJ wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
Drago-Kazov wrote: View Post
I mean for an enlightened Federation we had not seen a whole lot of voter activity.
If it served a story they would have shown it, otherwise it occured outside of the episodes.
Yeah. But it's never even mentioned.
It's been mentioned twice, actually. "Errand of Fury" and "Paradise Lost."
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Old October 6 2012, 04:31 AM   #26
MacLeod
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Re: Did we ever see anyone vote in the Federation?

Sci wrote: View Post
TerraUnam wrote: View Post
I've been a Poll Clerk and Deputy Returning Officer in Canada in three elections. It takes a half hour to count the votes, and an hour to fill out all the paper work balancing ballots issued against ballots cast, spoiled ballots, and other stuff. Worse if the Poll Clerk's list of names crossed off doesn't match the number of ballots issued. That's usually a person's eye gliding over one name.

But results are in in three hours of polling, though it isn't official until a week later, the count my the DRO and Poll Clerk is only considered "preliminary" in Canadian law. Everything has to be counted again by the riding Returning Officer, or if the candidates are separated by less that 100 votes, a judge.
Exactly. It's all more complicated than just adding things up once.
Yes but if you note he said the results are in within 3 hours. It might take a week under Canadian law for it to become an offical result. But the result is still known within hours of polls closing.

You just need enough people to count the votes to return a result within a day or less.
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Old October 6 2012, 05:18 AM   #27
BillJ
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Re: Did we ever see anyone vote in the Federation?

Sci wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post

If it served a story they would have shown it, otherwise it occured outside of the episodes.
Yeah. But it's never even mentioned.
It's been mentioned twice, actually. "Errand of Fury" and "Paradise Lost."
I've never heard of any voter activity mentioned, civilian or military (discussions of process or who someone voted for) in any episode of Star Trek.
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Old October 6 2012, 08:11 AM   #28
Sci
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Re: Did we ever see anyone vote in the Federation?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
TerraUnam wrote: View Post
I've been a Poll Clerk and Deputy Returning Officer in Canada in three elections. It takes a half hour to count the votes, and an hour to fill out all the paper work balancing ballots issued against ballots cast, spoiled ballots, and other stuff. Worse if the Poll Clerk's list of names crossed off doesn't match the number of ballots issued. That's usually a person's eye gliding over one name.

But results are in in three hours of polling, though it isn't official until a week later, the count my the DRO and Poll Clerk is only considered "preliminary" in Canadian law. Everything has to be counted again by the riding Returning Officer, or if the candidates are separated by less that 100 votes, a judge.
Exactly. It's all more complicated than just adding things up once.
Yes but if you note he said the results are in within 3 hours.
And then things become exponentially more complicated and time-consuming the larger the population you're trying to serve.
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Old October 6 2012, 09:05 AM   #29
Drago-Kazov
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Re: Did we ever see anyone vote in the Federation?

BillJ wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
Drago-Kazov wrote: View Post
I mean for an enlightened Federation we had not seen a whole lot of voter activity.
If it served a story they would have shown it, otherwise it occured outside of the episodes.
Yeah. But it's never even mentioned.

It seems Deep Space Nine would've been ripe for a storyline about the civilian political process during a time of war.
DS 9 could had pulled it of. Politics is dark and machiavellian and DS 9 was dark enough not to alienate lot of people who quite frankly don't vote or dislike most politicians.
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Old October 6 2012, 01:14 PM   #30
Christopher
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Re: Did we ever see anyone vote in the Federation?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
You just need enough people to count the votes to return a result within a day or less.
I really don't think you're considering the logistics that would entail when you're dealing with over 150 entire planets. It's nonsense to think you can meaningfully extrapolate from how it happens in a single country.

And again, what is your rush? What is wrong with the idea of taking the time to be sure the results are trustworthy? It's not like the winners have to take office by the end of election day or something. There's naturally going to be a period of transition between election and inauguration. So no damage is going to be done if it takes an extra day or three to collate and verify the results. And plenty of damage could be done if the process were rushed for no good reason.
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