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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old October 3 2012, 01:39 PM   #16
Anwar
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

For a guy who cares so much for his family honor and such, Worf sure is crappy when it comes to his blood family. First he abandons Alexander for years and then what he did to Kurn. At least we know he loves his human parents.
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Old October 3 2012, 02:15 PM   #17
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

I thought it was established early on that for Klingons, caring means abandoning. That's how honor manifested for the Klingon officer that Riker chatted with in "A Matter of Honor" already: if family honor is stained, then the culprit is shunned forever, as even killing him would be too good for him.

The closer the family ties, the greater the shame, and the greater the need to cut all contact, or perhaps cut throat if one can bring oneself to do this service to somebody who doesn't deserve it. All for the good of the family and the name.

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Old October 3 2012, 02:22 PM   #18
R. Star
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Worf'sParmach wrote: View Post
Zombie Redshirt wrote: View Post

How cool would it have been though if Kurn was around regularly(like Martok, Damar, etc) as a security officer?
I wonder if Jadzia would have liked Kurn better ...
Who knows? Though I doubt Kurn would have liked Jadzia at all. Even if he wasn't stated to have daughters and by proxy a wife.
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Old October 3 2012, 03:39 PM   #19
sonak
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Anwar wrote: View Post
The worst part is that a Year later Worf got his Honor back and he never spared a thought for what he'd done to Kurn.

yup. Reminds me of an episode of "House" where they erase a guy's memory and it ends up having nothing to do with the guy's medical problem.


I don't know WHY they had this ending if they were always planning to restore Worf's honor.
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Old October 3 2012, 11:23 PM   #20
Kira Nerys
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

I hated the way Sons of Mogh ended .The way Worf and Dr.Bashir did away with Kurn essentially was not in character with either of them .Bashir is a healer and in later eps he doesn't do anything with the patients consent of next of kin.As for Worf,I just didn't buy it being any honorable death for the klingon spieces as a whole.Totally non believeable,off charcter episodes of the series run.It was the same for me ,with the ep In the Pale Moonlight ,what Sisko wasn't penalized for what he did ? Did the romulans ever figure out that it was Garak that riggered the shuttle to explode ,to trick them into getting into the war ?
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Old October 3 2012, 11:25 PM   #21
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

That ending was unnecessarily awkward. So it was for nothing seeing that Worf got his honor back and Kurn would have gotten his.

A weird turn for a classic character.

Strange thing, before the operation, Kurn had simply passed out from being drunk. That means someone sedated and brought him to Dr. Bashir.

How did Worf convince Julian to do the procedure without Kurn's permission? Wouldn't that be considered unethical and even illegal?

And when exactly did Worf get his honor restored? He joined Martok's house, but the House of Mog was dismembered or something.

Either way, Worf made it up to almost being chancellor-if they had left Kurns character alone up until then....
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Old October 4 2012, 12:29 AM   #22
R. Star
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

I could have seen Kurn just grumpily signing a form that says Worf is his guardian in regards to all decisions regarding medical procedures.
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Old October 5 2012, 02:44 AM   #23
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Zombie Redshirt wrote: View Post
I could have seen Kurn just grumpily signing a form that says Worf is his guardian in regards to all decisions regarding medical procedures.
Then that scene has to be shown, or it's bad storytelling.
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Old October 5 2012, 02:52 AM   #24
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

^
I get that you don't like the episode and are reaching for reasons to validate that dislike for it, but don't you think that's a stretch? These are episodes limited to about 45 minutes of airtime.
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Old October 5 2012, 03:38 AM   #25
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Zombie Redshirt wrote: View Post
^
I get that you don't like the episode and are reaching for reasons to validate that dislike for it, but don't you think that's a stretch? These are episodes limited to about 45 minutes of airtime.

no... it's not a stretch at all, and i don't try to reach for reasons to dislike something. The problems with the ending of this episode are very apparent enough.

If required information is needed for the story to make sense, then it has to be shown. Otherwise it's sloppy story telling and we are left with the outcome of this episode which paints Worf as both dishonorable and scheming, Dr. Bashir as one hell of a scumbag of a doctor.

Seriously. Erasing someone's memory without consent. That is almost as bad as murder, some would argue it is worse (Probably Kurn). It is completely unethical and immoral. If there is an explanation for it, like you put forth, it MUST be shown or at least told to justify such an action. This isn't one of those situations like "Oh Sisko changed into a new uniform, how did THAT happen? I need an explanation!"... This is required information if you care about the integrity of the characters.

Also, the episode itself doesn't really gel with your explanation, because if Kurn had given consent there would be no need for all the secrecy.
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Old October 5 2012, 05:28 AM   #26
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Seems you have all the answers then.
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Old October 5 2012, 06:12 AM   #27
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

I see a lot of posts trashing the ending, but few suggesting a better outcome for Kurn under the circumstances.

It's not like Worf knew he'd get his honor back, and I can't see it being a kindness to tear Kurn out of whatever life he'd built for himself in the meantime.

I don't blame Worf for choosing the solution he did over killing his brother, even if it wasn't the Klingon thing to do, because as established, he isn't quite Klingon.
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Old October 5 2012, 08:19 AM   #28
Timo
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Erasing someone's memory without consent. That is almost as bad as murder...
...Which Klingons do often enough, and consider a duty rather than a crime.

Really, blatant disregard of an inferior's or chattel's concerns is the consistently portrayed Klingon Way. If said inferior or dependent is a blood relative, that's all the more reason to cast all sentiment aside and do the Warrior Thing.

As pointed out above, Worf had already tentatively tried to suggest the soft approach and gotten vilified for it, in "Birthright". That'd make him less likely to publicly go human again; if anything, he grew more Klingon again during his DS9 years.

It's not that Worf would have been inconsistent or evil or anything. He was just Worf, our adorable slaughterer and wife-beater, made more popular than ever by the addition of those qualities to his character. No, it's solely a question of whether Bashir should have treated a Klingon patient as a human one.

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Old October 5 2012, 09:33 AM   #29
Nightdiamond
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

I never really noticed the issue until I read this thread.

We go from Kurn being drunk and passed out, to Kurn being on the operating table and Julian asking Worf if he's sure if he wants to go through with the procedure.

Bashir doesn't argue that he can't do it without permission from Kurn himself, (which I think someone like Bashir would have), he just agrees to do the whole thing.

Worf doesn't have the rank to go to the C.M.O and order him to wipe someone else's memory.

It creates a messy situation because Worf could have just asked Kurn to let his memory be erased to get a new life, but in all likelihood Kurn would be offended by the whole thing.

So that means it was done without his consent, because they knew he would never agree to it.

OTOH, I supposed if he were in Worf's custody, it would be easier to push it through. I mean, the guy was suicidal. But geeez..

One lesson here--if you're drunk and depressed, don't ever do it in front of Worf, lol.

Last edited by Nightdiamond; October 5 2012 at 09:50 AM.
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Old October 5 2012, 08:12 PM   #30
Anwar
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Re: Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

DonIago wrote: View Post
I see a lot of posts trashing the ending, but few suggesting a better outcome for Kurn under the circumstances.

It's not like Worf knew he'd get his honor back
The writers probably knew they were going to do it eventually, because this wasn't the first time they'd done so to Worf!
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