The Genesis planet...

[Therin of Andor]

beamMe wrote:

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I've noticed that you view yourself as the arbiter of all things right and true in Star Trek

And you don't? Isn't this why these argument just go on and on. No one will win. Neither of us will convince the other that what they've considered to be true for several decades is not true.

When I saw ST II, I saw the Genesis Device draw material from the nebula and create a planet. Later, this interpretation was confirmed (for me) by reading the novelization, "making of..." books and magazines, and the script. I also saw comics and novels, over the years, that revisited Regula One and the Genesis Cave. Also a recent IDW adaptation in comic form.

Until a few weeks ago, I don't think I realised there were fans who thought that Regula became the Genesis Planet.

[Hartzilla2007]

Therin of Andor wrote:

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Until a few weeks ago, I don't think I realised there were fans who thought that Regula became the Genesis Planet.

Honestly, I'm still trying to figure out how that would even work in a way thats more plausible then the nebula becoming the Genesis Planet.

[Therin of Andor]

Hartzilla2007 wrote:

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Honestly, I'm still trying to figure out how that would even work in a way thats more plausible then the nebula becoming the Genesis Planet.

And, unless it also shifted solar systems, why would it not still be called Regula? When McCoy was attempting to get transport there, in ST III, why not ask for passage to Regula?

"Genesis? Genesis is planet forbidden!"

[CorporalCaptain]

Therin of Andor wrote:

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And, unless it also shifted solar systems, why would it not still be called Regula? When McCoy was attempting to get transport there, in ST III, why not ask for passage to Regula?

"Genesis? Genesis is planet forbidden!"

People can't book passage to Czechoslovakia anymore. Prague hasn't moved, though.

Names can change, even when locations don't.

[Tiberius]

Conscious Circuits wrote:

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People can't book passage to Czechoslovakia anymore. Prague hasn't moved, though.

Names can change, even when locations don't.

Okay, let's assume you are right.

The Genesis planet was formed from the Regula planetoid. And afterwards, the name was changed to the Genesis Planet.

My question is this: why would this name change be common knowledge if Genesis is so top secret that it is planet forbidden?

[CorporalCaptain]

Ti-BOO!-rius wrote:

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Okay, let's assume you are right.

The Genesis planet was formed from the Regula planetoid. And afterwards, the name was changed to the Genesis Planet.

My question is this: why would this name change be common knowledge if Genesis is so top secret that it is planet forbidden?

I'm sorry, but I didn't claim that Regula was Genesis. From the content of my earlier posts in this thread, about how fast the Genesis Planet evolved, it should be pretty clear that I accept that Genesis formed out of the nebula, apart from Regula.

What I said was that the argument that a name change is implausible doesn't wash. Not at all. That's especially so in the context of the political controversy.

I'll let Admiral Morrow take the rest of your question [http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie3.html]:

MORROW: Jim, the Enterprise is twenty years old. We feel her day is over.
KIRK: But we had requested... We'd hoped to take her back to Genesis.
MORROW: That is out of the question.
KIRK: May I ask why?
MORROW: In your absence, Genesis has become a galactic controversy. ...Until the Federation Council makes policy, you are all under orders not to discuss with anyone your knowledge of Genesis. Consider it a quarantined planet, and a forbidden subject.

The word was already out. They were under orders not to discuss it.

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While I considered both possibilities on first viewing, the tipping point for me was that Regula was not inside the nebula. As sketchy as the visual effects are, they pretty clearly suggest that the Genesis planet formed at ground zero of the explosion, which was inside the nebula. Therefore, not Regula.

If anything happened to Regula, it was absorbed by the Genesis wave along with the whole nebula and reformed at the point of explosion. Although there's no direct evidence of that either, it did occur to me during STIII that that could have explained the wonkiness of everything on the planet. David never brought that up though, so that casts an enormous amount of doubt on even just that idea.

[CorporalCaptain]

Conscious Circuits wrote:

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If anything happened to Regula, it was absorbed by the Genesis wave along with the whole nebula and reformed at the point of explosion. Although there's no direct evidence of that either, it did occur to me during STIII that that could have explained the wonkiness of everything on the planet. David never brought that up though, so that casts an enormous amount of doubt on even just that idea.

To clarify the point in boldface, Regula held the Genesis Cave. The Genesis Effect happening on top of something already produced from the Genesis Effect might behave strangely, especially if the design was flawed to begin with. But, as I said, if that was the reason why the Genesis Planet fell apart, David sure didn't mention it.

[Tiberius]

Conscious Circuits wrote:

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I'm sorry, but I didn't claim that Regula was Genesis. From the content of my earlier posts in this thread, about how fast the Genesis Planet evolved, it should be pretty clear that I accept that Genesis formed out of the nebula, apart from Regula.

Then I am confused about why you brought up the whole name change issue. What name was changed in Trek three if it wasn't the Regula planetoid to Genesis Planet?

[CorporalCaptain]

Ti-BOO!-rius wrote:

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Then I am confused about why you brought up the whole name change issue. What name was changed in Trek three if it wasn't the Regula planetoid to Genesis Planet?

I answered why I brought it up, already.

Conscious Circuits wrote:

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What I said was that the argument that a name change is implausible doesn't wash. Not at all. That's especially so in the context of the political controversy.

I'm not arguing that any name change occurred, only that a name change might be completely plausible if the two planets were one and the same.

Pointing to the fact that the name Regula was never used to refer to the Genesis Planet carries no weight in the argument that the two were supposed to be different. To support my point, I've cited a real world example when the name of a place has been changed, following political events.

In other words, I agree with those who've said that a name change makes total sense. I agree, it would, if the two planets were the same.

[Timo]

One point relevant to the name change is that the star didn't change. That is, the action never ventured sufficiently far away from the star of Regula that the star of Genesis could be a different star.

We sometimes hear that Trek locations are known by the name of the one relevant planet, sometimes by the name of the star. If the relevant planet changes, then that name probably is the informative one, and the star system now has to go by a different name. And of course the system can go by multiple different names: Ceti Ypsilon system (say), Regula system, Genesis system. Few would have even heard the name of the star or the planetoid before Genesis made the location famous...

Timo Saloniemi

[Timo]

We must assume that if it is matter, Genesis can work with it.

...But solely for the purpose of turning it into life-generating matter, according to Marcus. You can't build a planet (or a star!) out of moss.

Yes they do certainly rise.

Not on camera, I don't think. The camera simply moves along the surface, marred with craters visible from great heights. About thirty seconds into the ride, we close in on fuzzy orange mountains which then turn grey and sharp and then acquire snowcaps as the landscape acquires water and vegetation. The zoom-in would obscure all evidence of cratering: the mountains we see would not have been visible in the early moments of the simulation at all. In the subsequent zoom-out, water in turn obscures everything.

To say that mountains "rise" in the transition from fuzzy orange to sharp grey is overstating the case: there is no vertical movement there to be seen.

I'd say the orange fuzziness is the exact same thing we see on the main viewer after our heroes have made good their escape. It just lingers longer in reality than in the simulation. And involves just the sort of small scale changes demonstrated in the simulation.

Timo Saloniemi

[MacLeod]

It's been a few years since I watched TWOK and TSFS but as a referrence point can't we use the size of ships and the Regula space station.

From memory Regula appeared to be smaller than the Genesis planet.

[beamMe]

Therin of Andor wrote:

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And you don't?

Nope.

[beamMe]

Hartzilla2007 wrote:

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Honestly, I'm still trying to figure out how that would even work in a way thats more plausible then the nebula becoming the Genesis Planet.

explosion throws at least some of whatever Genesis is on Regula (it was a pretty damn big explosion) + whatever Genesis is springs into action and re-forms Regula = Genesis Planet

That's a simpler explanation that at least meshes somewhat with what (little) we were told about Genesis. It doesn't introduce some new properties of Genesis, that were never stated in the movie anyway.

[Hartzilla2007]

beamMe wrote:

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explosion throws at least some of whatever Genesis is on Regula (it was a pretty damn big explosion)

It wasn't that big.

And thinking about this

CoveZombie wrote:

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Well, aside from the fact that the term "warp core breach" hadn't even been invented yet, why should they mention it? They certainly didn't mention the fact that it was the Genesis wave they were running from either. I assume they didn't mention it because, in either case, everyone understood what they were running from.

Actually I'm pretty sure they were far enough away to avoid the core breach seeing as that only endangers ships pretty close to it, and I'm pretty sure that the though that an exploding starship poses a threat to anything but itself was a modern trek concept.