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Old October 3 2012, 04:36 AM   #316
stj
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Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

Arthur Conan Doyle knew there was an issue with Watson's sexuality and his relationship to Holmes. He didn't handle it very well as it turned out. He lamely tried to have Watson dropping his practice and wife at a telegram from Holmes. But what doesn't work well in a short story works even less well in a long-running television series. Has nothing to do with sexism. Is there some determination to misunderstand even the simplest thing?

There is no issue in any single episode of Elementary. It's a question of how they will handle it if the series is successful. If they give their Holmes a sex life it will be a risky break with tradition. If they give their Watson a sex life, it will mean writing a sex life for a woman lead who can't be thrown into the refrigerator. Yet given the premise, the woman in this case can't be defined by her sexuality.

And it's not a question of flirting with Holmes. This Watson is supposed to already have a life of her own, and unlike this Holmes, hasn't left it thousands of miles away. Has she no one to go to the opera with?
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Old October 3 2012, 04:46 AM   #317
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Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

stj wrote: View Post
If they give their Holmes a sex life it will be a risky break with tradition.
Didn't you catch the part in the pilot where Holmes said that while he found sex distasteful, he needed it as part of his "process," which was why the hooker was just leaving when Watson showed up? It's certainly not a love life, but it is a sex life.


If they give their Watson a sex life, it will mean writing a sex life for a woman lead who can't be thrown into the refrigerator. Yet given the premise, the woman in this case can't be defined by her sexuality.
Which is not even remotely uncommon in television today, a fact you seem to be missing. You're assuming that it's somehow exceptional for "a woman lead" not to be defined solely by her sexuality, and if you think that, then you must not have watched a lot of television in the past decade or two.


And it's not a question of flirting with Holmes. This Watson is supposed to already have a life of her own, and unlike this Holmes, hasn't left it thousands of miles away. Has she no one to go to the opera with?
How the hell does that make her "sexless?" Lots of people are lonely without wanting to be alone. If you've never experienced that, I envy you, and so would millions of other people. Hell, this Watson is obviously pretty screwed up emotionally, dealing with guilt and failure, embarrassed by her past. It's not surprising that she'd be reluctant to let people get close, or that she might've lost the friends and associates she had in her former life. There are plenty of reasons why she could be alone without being "sexless." That's simply a ludicrous assumption to jump to.
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Old October 3 2012, 05:13 AM   #318
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Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

Zombie Cheerleader wrote: View Post
Just noticed your Halloween name. I watched Twins of Evil last weekend.
Thanks, I love the old Hammer Horror films. I watched The Vampire Lovers last night, and was planning to watch Twins of Evil this weekend.
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Old October 3 2012, 06:55 AM   #319
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Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

stj wrote: View Post
This Watson is supposed to already have a life of her own, and unlike this Holmes, hasn't left it thousands of miles away. Has she no one to go to the opera with?
She bought the tickets to the opera for herself and Holmes to celebrate what they thought was the conclusion of the case at the time. It's part of her job to interact with him socially. She was doing it not only to reward herself for a difficult couple of days but also to break him out of his shell. She may very well be lonely or have difficulty dating, but the opera was not indicative of that.
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Old October 3 2012, 12:28 PM   #320
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Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

Didn't you catch the part in the pilot where Holmes said that while he found sex distasteful, he needed it as part of his "process," which was why the hooker was just leaving when Watson showed up? It's certainly not a love life, but it is a sex life.
No. That must have been when I was answering the phone.

But, wait! Bland, generic, safe CBS has the hero using a prositute? You must be pulling my leg. Giving Holmes a sex life is just too radical a break with tradition for the senior citizens who are the only ones who watch CBS.

Ah, I get it! You're pulling my leg!Surely if such a thing had happened people would have discussed this instead of babbling about bland and safe! It would have been a big deal.
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Old October 3 2012, 01:53 PM   #321
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Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

^ It happened. I think people didn't comment on it because, in the grander scheme of things, its a small character nuance.

Since you weren't aware of this having happened though, here's the specifics:
Watson wakes up late and therefore misses checking Holmes out of rehab (she finds out he left on his own, effectively staging a jail break), so she goes to his house, getting there in time to see some nameless woman putting her clothes on through the open window. After the woman leaves, Watson goes inside and Holmes does his awkward 'pickup line' recitation that was in all the early trailers.

Watson introduces herself and confronts him about the rehab jail break and the woman, and Holmes is nonchalant and dismissive on both fronts, talking about the two things the way you'd talk about the weather, describing things with the woman exactly as Christopher said.

Watson later calls BS on the thing with the woman, using it to get Holmes to all but admit that he's running from the event - which she deduces involved a woman - that led to Holmes' drug crash in London.
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Old October 3 2012, 04:51 PM   #322
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Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

stj wrote: View Post
Didn't you catch the part in the pilot where Holmes said that while he found sex distasteful, he needed it as part of his "process," which was why the hooker was just leaving when Watson showed up? It's certainly not a love life, but it is a sex life.
No. That must have been when I was answering the phone.

But, wait! Bland, generic, safe CBS has the hero using a prositute? You must be pulling my leg. Giving Holmes a sex life is just too radical a break with tradition for the senior citizens who are the only ones who watch CBS.
And not just any prostitute, but a tattooed hussy whom (it's implied) specializes in bondage . . . .
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Old October 3 2012, 05:16 PM   #323
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Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

stj wrote: View Post


Ah, I get it! You're pulling my leg!Surely if such a thing had happened people would have discussed this instead of babbling about bland and safe! It would have been a big deal.
Or perhaps it was such a tiny part of the episode, tossed in in an attempt to be "edgey" it wasn't of much consequence. Perhaps it was a big deal for network, but in this era of cable it came off as more cute than anything.

It would've been a big deal, and more interesting if Watson walked in in the middle of it.
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Old October 3 2012, 05:21 PM   #324
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Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post


Ah, I get it! You're pulling my leg!Surely if such a thing had happened people would have discussed this instead of babbling about bland and safe! It would have been a big deal.
Or perhaps it was such a tiny part of the episode, tossed in in an attempt to be "edgey" it wasn't of much consequence. Perhaps it was a big deal for network, but in this era of cable it came off as more cute than anything.

It would've been a big deal, and more interesting if Watson walked in in the middle of it.

And, honestly, it's not all that unusual for detective shows. TV cops and detectives have been consorting with hookers and exotic dancers since at least Barney Miller. And let's not forget Grissom's dominatrix soulmate on CSI . . . . .
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Old October 3 2012, 05:47 PM   #325
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Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

Christopher wrote: View Post
For any two characters in a fictional franchise (or across different franchises), you'll find someone who imagines them as lovers, no matter how insanely wrong a pairing it is.
One word: Wincest. Ugh.
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Old October 3 2012, 06:25 PM   #326
stj
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Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
^ It happened. I think people didn't comment on it because, in the grander scheme of things, its a small character nuance.

Since you weren't aware of this having happened though, here's the specifics:
Watson wakes up late and therefore misses checking Holmes out of rehab (she finds out he left on his own, effectively staging a jail break), so she goes to his house, getting there in time to see some nameless woman putting her clothes on through the open window. After the woman leaves, Watson goes inside and Holmes does his awkward 'pickup line' recitation that was in all the early trailers.

Watson introduces herself and confronts him about the rehab jail break and the woman, and Holmes is nonchalant and dismissive on both fronts, talking about the two things the way you'd talk about the weather, describing things with the woman exactly as Christopher said.

Watson later calls BS on the thing with the woman, using it to get Holmes to all but admit that he's running from the event - which she deduces involved a woman - that led to Holmes' drug crash in London.
Thanks for the recap. It's true that this sort of thing is not unheard of, but it's still unusual, and becoming ever more so. This changes the context of the later confrontation scene. I suppose I should try to rewatch but CBS isn't desperate enough to stream episodes online as I recall.
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Old October 3 2012, 07:30 PM   #327
DigificWriter
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Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

stj wrote: View Post
CBS isn't desperate enough to stream episodes online as I recall.
Not sure where you got that idea from, because the network definitely does stream its stuff online. I've watched Survivor episodes on their site before, and they have the Elementary pilot available right now as well if you do want to rewatch it.
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Old October 3 2012, 08:33 PM   #328
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Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

Christopher wrote: View Post
For any two characters in a fictional franchise (or across different franchises), you'll find someone who imagines them as lovers, no matter how insanely wrong a pairing it is.
I vote for Norm Peterson and Cliff Clavin in Cheers.

Can anyone top that for an insanely wrong pairing?
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Old October 3 2012, 09:04 PM   #329
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Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

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I vote for Norm Peterson and Cliff Clavin in Cheers.

Can anyone top that for an insanely wrong pairing?
Oh, come on, that's downright tame by shipping standards. Whoever mentioned "Wincest" already surpassed that by a huge margin. (That's a reference to the Supernatural fans who imagine the two male leads as lovers even though they're brothers.)
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Old October 3 2012, 09:05 PM   #330
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Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

^But have you seen Norm and Cliff?!
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