If the Daleks then why not the Time Lords?

[Awesome Possum]

From what I've seen of old Who, they were a race of jerks. Only the Doctor, the Master and Romana were interesting.

[ATimson]

Nightmare Moon wrote:

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From what I've seen of old Who, they were a race of jerks. Only the Doctor, the Master and Romana were interesting.

Seeing as how you cite the Master, jerks can be interesting.

[MacLeod]

To quote the sixth Doctor :

In all my travelling throughout the universe, I have battled against evil, against power-mad conspirators. I should have stayed here. The oldest civilisation: decadent, degenerate, and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans, Cybermen - they're still in the nursery compared to us. Ten million years of absolute power. That's what it takes to be really corrupt.

[Sindatur]

MacLeod wrote:

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To quote the sixth Doctor :

In all my travelling throughout the universe, I have battled against evil, against power-mad conspirators. I should have stayed here. The oldest civilisation: decadent, degenerate, and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans, Cybermen - they're still in the nursery compared to us. Ten million years of absolute power. That's what it takes to be really corrupt.

Is it any wonder McCoy became so Secretive and Manipulative?

For any "NuWho Only Fans", the Classic Tom Baker Serial, Genesis of The Daleks, where the Doctor is forced into a situation where The Time Lords want The Doctor to destroy the Daleks at their Genesis. This Story, is said by Many an Uber-Fan, to be the "First Strike in the Time War". I think all "NuWho UberFans" should see this for Reference's sake (IMHO, Of course)

[Awesome Possum]

ATimson wrote:

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Seeing as how you cite the Master, jerks can be interesting.

Just normal jerks, like ones from your job. Not the kind who try to blow up half the universe.

[The Wormhole]

Gotham Central wrote:

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Have either stated that conclusively or is that pure fan conjecture?

The Writer's Tale makes it quite clear that RTD doesn't care for the Time Lords and implies Moffat doesn't either.

MacLeod wrote:

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To quote the sixth Doctor :

In all my travelling throughout the universe, I have battled against evil, against power-mad conspirators. I should have stayed here. The oldest civilisation: decadent, degenerate, and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans, Cybermen - they're still in the nursery compared to us. Ten million years of absolute power. That's what it takes to be really corrupt.

The perfect quote which sums up everything about who and what the Time Lords are.

Sindatur wrote:

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For any "NuWho Only Fans", the Classic Tom Baker Serial, Genesis of The Daleks, where the Doctor is forced into a situation where The Time Lords want The Doctor to destroy the Daleks at their Genesis. This Story, is said by Many an Uber-Fan, to be the "First Strike in the Time War"

Not just uber-fans, RTD described it as such in his Time War essay written in 2005.

[G2309]

From what I understand their complacency made them weaker and less likely to survive. Which is why they were desperate enough to resurect the master to help in the war.
Even when the timelords do appear in the end of time te don't get much screen time which shows how much Russel T Davis cared for them.

[The Wormhole]

G2309 wrote:

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Even when the timelords do appear in the end of time te don't get much screen time which shows how much Russel T Davis cared for them.

RTD was very relunctant to include the Time Lords in The End of Time. Even when he finally decided to use them, he found them difficult to write for and had a hard time just trying to figure out how they would talk.

[Timby]

Mr Light wrote:

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I just read RTD's "The Writer's Tale" and he says he made the right decision to off the Time Lords because they don't work in the story and rob all the drama since there's an all powerful race of good guys lurking in the wings, and they were stuffy ponces anyway.

They're definitely more interesting in their absence, but all of the Doctor's whining about being the last of them, and missing his people and all that ... it really fell flat for me, because it was as though the Doctor had completely forgotten that his people were raging assholes.

As for the Daleks, I'm just glad that they're finally un-fucked and are re-established as Being Out There, Doing Bad Things, so now new stories don't have to go through the hoops of the Daleks showing up, someone crying "oh, no, some Daleks survived the Time War, what will we doooooooo" as a result of another ship falling through time or hiding behind the moon or behind the sofa or what have you, which means the stories don't have to waste time with some increasingly masturbatory explanation of why these Daleks survived.

[TemporalFlux]

The Time Lords set up an escape plan through The Master; but another of their race, The Doctor, stopped it. The Daleks could have set up their own escape plan; would there be a Dalek of good conscience to stand up and stop it?

[The Wormhole]

Timby wrote:

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They're definitely more interesting in their absence, but all of the Doctor's whining about being the last of them, and missing his people and all that ... it really fell flat for me, because it was as though the Doctor had completely forgotten that his people were raging assholes.

Surviving the genocide of his entire species probably left the Doctor with some guilt issues, especially since he's the one who caused it. As a coping mechanism, he chose to remember the Time Lords by noble ideals they claimed to believe in as opposed to remembering them as the galactic douchebags they really were.

[Holdfast]

The Time Lords are really one of the few alien races the Doctor can be genuinely intellectually intimidated by; that's why I'd like to see them back again. Most races are basically either children or curiosities to him, with the possible exception of the Daleks and maybe one or two others. He may care for many of them, but there's always a power imbalance in the relationship. Time Lords, whether adversaries or allies, have to be taken more seriously by him.

Not just someone to teach, impress, protect, awe or defeat, but a person to talk to in a way only adult equals can. That's the dynamic I'd like to see if the Time Lords ever returned. The whole power/corruption/"jerks" angle discussed upthread is a mirror I'd love to see the Doctor be forced to emotionally & intellectually hold up to himself in a meaningful & literate way.

[DWF]

The Wormhole wrote:

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Surviving the genocide of his entire species probably left the Doctor with some guilt issues, especially since he's the one who caused it. As a coping mechanism, he chose to remember the Time Lords by noble ideals they claimed to believe in as opposed to remembering them as the galactic douchebags they really were.

He remembers the planet fondly but I've not heard him talk about the Time Lords that way.

[Mr Light]

Doesn't he say in The End of Time that he chooses to remember them fondly, but by the end they were totally warped?

[The Wormhole]

Indeed, from The End of Time:
Wilf: "But Doctor, I've heard you talk about your people and how great they were."
Doctor: "That's how I choose to remember them, as the Time Lords of old. But then they went to war, and it changed them."

I alos like this quote from The Sound of Drums. Although technically about Gallifrey, it can also be applied to the Time Lords and their society:
Jack: "All the legends I've heard about Gallifrey made it sound so perfect."
Doctor: "Perfect to look at, maybe. And it was..."