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Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

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Old October 3 2012, 04:29 AM   #16
Nerys Myk
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Re: Fantastic Four inspiration - Angry Red Planet?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Zombie Cheerleader wrote: View Post
A daredevil equaling fire is a bit of a stretch.
You're thinking way too literally about something that's explicitly metaphorical. Fire equals intensity, energy, danger. Not to mention "devil" suggesting a hellish association, fire and brimstone.
And I think people are looking for metaphors where none exist or were intended. Folks are barking up the wrong tree in my opinion. The personalities of the FF are more important than the powers. The smart guy, the tough guy, the kid and the girl are the archetypes being presented. Ones that Kirby especially likes to play with. Their powers almost seem drawn out of a hat. There only because its a superhero book.
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Last edited by Nerys Myk; October 3 2012 at 04:58 AM. Reason: more thoughts
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Old October 3 2012, 04:36 AM   #17
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Re: Fantastic Four inspiration - Angry Red Planet?

stj wrote: View Post
Also, the whole issue is complicated by the clear alignment of personality traits with powers in the case of Susan and Johnny. Then there's possibly a kind of irony in the misalignment in the others. Reed's seeming weakness as an intellectual=fantastic ability to metamorphose? While Ben's seeming strength=something more monstrous?
Or clever/open-minded = flexibility perhaps?
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Old October 3 2012, 06:18 AM   #18
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Re: Fantastic Four inspiration - Angry Red Planet?

Zombie Cheerleader wrote: View Post
And I think people are looking for metaphors where none exist or were intended. Folks are barking up the wrong tree in my opinion. The personalities of the FF are more important than the powers. The smart guy, the tough guy, the kid and the girl are the archetypes being presented. Ones that Kirby especially likes to play with. Their powers almost seem drawn out of a hat. There only because its a superhero book.
Well, it's certainly possible something crept in without intention. It's convenient that they can so easily align with the elemental metaphor so intentional or not I think it's valid.
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Old October 3 2012, 02:23 PM   #19
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Re: Fantastic Four inspiration - Angry Red Planet?

Well I feel its a matter of people seeing Johnny and Ben and thinking "fire and earth" then trying to fit Reed and Sue in as water and air. Stretching doesn't quite equal water and invisibility doesn't quite equal air. And as I mentioned in an earlier post, Ben's visual was supposed to invoke a scaly reptilian surface not rocks, so even that is off.
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Old October 3 2012, 08:02 PM   #20
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Re: Fantastic Four inspiration - Angry Red Planet?

Zombie Cheerleader wrote: View Post
Well I feel its a matter of people seeing Johnny and Ben and thinking "fire and earth" then trying to fit Reed and Sue in as water and air.
Yeah, people like Stan Friggin' Lee, who's talked at length about the creation of the FF several times.

Stretching doesn't quite equal water and invisibility doesn't quite equal air.
According to Stan "The Man," Reed's body was supposed to flow like water, which means in the original writer's terms stretching had nothing to do with it. And I don't know how you don't equate invisibility with air since air IS invisible, and Stan's idea was that air is able to move things invisibly, just like Susan does.

And as I mentioned in an earlier post, Ben's visual was supposed to invoke a scaly reptilian surface not rocks, so even that is off.
Yes, according to Jack Kirby, but also according to Jack Kirby he never drew it in a way that looked properly reptilian, so everybody else saw it as earth (early issues) and orange rocks (later issues), including the guy writing the damn comic.

Water, Air, Earth. Do you really need a detailed explanation as to why Johnny Storm isn't just "human torch 2.0?"
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Old October 3 2012, 09:15 PM   #21
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Re: Fantastic Four inspiration - Angry Red Planet?

Well, I feel like a total schmuck for never noticing the elemental parallels until now. But now that it has been pointed out, DOY!, it's so obvious!!!

But what were the parallels Beaker hinted within the first post, beyond a grouping of four people? I've never seen "Angry Red Planet", so I'm again clueless? was it just their personalities and job functions, or did something affect them during the course of the film?

Sincerely,

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Old October 3 2012, 09:58 PM   #22
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Re: Fantastic Four inspiration - Angry Red Planet?

This has been a great discussion. Redfern, it was the situation, the rather facile approach to a space mission, and the specific character types of the four astronauts that really resonated for me when watching this movie. Fr'instance, I about fell out of my chair when the ship lands on mars and the stocky pilot says, "Well, howzabout we go out and claim it in the name of Brooklyn?"
The hokey monsters they encountered were right out of the cover of FF#1, for that matter.

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Old October 4 2012, 01:34 AM   #23
Nerys Myk
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Re: Fantastic Four inspiration - Angry Red Planet?

Admiral2 wrote: View Post
Zombie Cheerleader wrote: View Post
Well I feel its a matter of people seeing Johnny and Ben and thinking "fire and earth" then trying to fit Reed and Sue in as water and air.
Yeah, people like Stan Friggin' Lee, who's talked at length about the creation of the FF several times.
I haven't run across any talks by Lee where he mentions this.

Stretching doesn't quite equal water and invisibility doesn't quite equal air.
According to Stan "The Man," Reed's body was supposed to flow like water, which means in the original writer's terms stretching had nothing to do with it. And I don't know how you don't equate invisibility with air since air IS invisible, and Stan's idea was that air is able to move things invisibly, just like Susan does.
Again not in any material by Stan that I've read. Reed was pretty much a take off on Plastic Man in terms of powers. He stretches and morphs his body. Ben even calls him "Stretch". Making a lasso or a net out of your body doesn't say "water. Sue's invisible. That means she can't be seen. That was her main thing till they gave her the force field. When I think air power I think of winds like Storm generates, not a book floating in air.

And as I mentioned in an earlier post, Ben's visual was supposed to invoke a scaly reptilian surface not rocks, so even that is off.
Yes, according to Jack Kirby, but also according to Jack Kirby he never drew it in a way that looked properly reptilian, so everybody else saw it as earth (early issues) and orange rocks (later issues), including the guy writing the damn comic.
Again, not in any comments by Stan that I've read. Of course Jack was the guy providing the visuals. And if you believe some of what he said, Jack was also doing a lot of plotting as well. One example of that is the Silver Surfer, who did not appear in Stan's outline.

Or course Stan's poor memory is legendary.

Water, Air, Earth. Do you really need a detailed explanation as to why Johnny Storm isn't just "human torch 2.0?"
He's the only one the actually has elemental powers, so no.
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Old October 4 2012, 01:48 AM   #24
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Re: Fantastic Four inspiration - Angry Red Planet?

I suspect the answer here is that Lee and Kirby were creative sponges who absorbed all sorts of influences in order to turn out the various books they did, sometimes consciously and sometimes subconsciously. In addition, I think their output over the years shows that each of them had certain themes and archetypes they liked to revisit in their work over and over.
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Old October 4 2012, 01:49 AM   #25
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Re: Fantastic Four inspiration - Angry Red Planet?

I can buy the FF as elemental but the Challengers is pushing it. I love theories about Kirby's stuff though like Star Wars and Masters of the Universe and New Gods.
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